cattle start-up questions..

   / cattle start-up questions.. #21  
I live on a family farm. We have about 80 plus breeding cows. I keep 3 to 4 bulls. A good bull will be around 5 to 10 years. We have ways of segregating and have kept bulls 15 years. Yes thats a long time. Overall profits are thin althought you will find post of people making a killing and selling at 200% of the local sale barn price.
Its a lifestyle that helps make a living. Its animal husbandry and you gotta be there. I have flighty retired neighbors that go on vacation and abandon their cattlereturn weeks later asking wheres my cattle.
I cannot make enough profit to drive new $40K pickups or new high end tractors. But we make a profit every year. The cattle are plain and the machinery is useable.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #22  
PLUMBOY, redlevel has been there, too. He talks the talk and walks the walk. He tells it like it is. If you can find someone like him and get their animals... DO IT!

Hybrid vigor is a real thing BUT it is most beneficial to a cowman who retains his calves ownership thru slaughter and thus benefits from all its benefits and the benefits of his good breeding. For someone like you, the MOST important thing is a bred cow (fertility) and a live calf (hardiness). A dead claf has a distressingly low weight gain. For a small herd, all other growth factors are overshadowed by those requirements. This includes bull selection for high weaning weight (beware... there is a very high correlation with high birth weight, which is highly risky).

Whatever you do, buy at least ONE cow that is dog gentle and will eat cubes out of your hand and follow you whereever you go. They are out there... they are a rancher's favorite cow and he loves her. You might find someone who wants their favorite cow to have a good place to retire rather than go to slaughter when she gets old. I don't care if she is barren.... (it's better if she is not).... the value of having a lead cow when you are just getting started, particularly with either heifers or bull calves is priceless. Heifers or bull calves in a herd by themselves are trouble... hard to herd, hard to call into a pen, have ideas of their own... um, kinda like a teenager, which they are... a lead mature cow that they stick with is worth a horse and two dogs.

You asked how many calves a cow can have. Again, many will give you their own opinions/experiences. This is a reasonable factor to consider because it takes so long to get started calving. Let me give you the summary... you can study more for yourself.

The IDEAL: A heifer should have her first calf at 24 months of age, breed back annually and have a 12 month calving interval for the rest of her productive life. My best beefmaster cows have calves up to 14 or 16 years of age. I know, I have raised them from calves. Almost all calve annually until 12 to 14 years. If a cow doesn't get bred, or has a long calving interval, they are sold immediately... fertility is important economically and for purebred animals. Cycles vary but are about 28 days apart. Gestation is 9 months. That only leaves 3 months for a cow to clean up and cycle again and get successfully bred to maintain a 12 month calving interval.

Each breed has its own typical characteristics. Some are slow to start and are maybe 36 months old when they have their first calf. Others stop having calves at 8 to 10 years of age. I know of longhorn cows that are having calves past 20 years of age. Like anything, there is variation within each breed and much depends on the nutrition and mineral diet all throughout their life.

As a startup operation, you will be spending time, and need to, on facilities, fences, the mechanics of the place. Again, I cannot stress sufficiently the importance of getting cattle you can handle AT THE START, day one when you let them out of the trailer. Breed is far less important than being able to handle your animals from day one.

You are thinking rightly regarding the benefits for you and your son... they are not monetary but they are substantial.

I highly recommend you try high tensile wire and put up an electric fence... one strand at least, and run it using a modern high impedence fence charger... get one qualified for 100 miles of fence or more. They have them at TSC and elsewhere. Nothing teaches respect for fences the way an electric fence does. I'm glad to know you have 60 acres... that gives you some flexibility. It is MUCH better to stock lightly than to try to harvest all your grass. I'd be very reluctant to have more than one animal unit per 4 acres, regardless of grass, unless your management capabilities are exceptional.... maybe in a few years... but not at startup. There is much to learn about grazing and grazing programs. Learn about and understand these terms: constant pasture grazing, rotation grazing, high intensity-short duration rotation grazing.

Before you start building pens, visit your neighbor, look at his pens carefully. Help him work stock, learn how they move. Cattle like to curve right or left into a new pen. Ask him why. Learn how they move in pens. Properly designed pens are a critical component of being able to handle cattle safely. You need, minimum, one large pen where you can get all your stock trapped up. Then, off of that pen you need a smaller pen where you can gather just one or more head. Then you need a swing gate that will pressure the animal from that small pen into a narrow chute area which, hopefully, terminates in a squeeze chute and is positioned so you can back up a trailer to load an animal.

Regarding banding... well, yep, works. Costs money for the equipment. Another option is a pocket knife. Catch the bull calf at about 2 weeks of age after he is nursing and healthy. Cut him, put medicine on the wound and it'll heal up quickly. At that age, you can still manhandle the calf. WATCH the cow, she may fight you even if she is gentle. I do NOT fault a protective momma cow, it is part of the hardiness characteristic and useful when feral dogs, coyotes attack her calf. Best to do the deed in a separate pen from momma. Later the calf weighs more and it gets harder, even to put a band on. The primary beneficiary will be the person who buys the animal, not you. If you leave the animal intact and sell it at 6-8 months, then the weight it puts on from the testosterone will be to your benefit. I leave my bull calves intact. There is no difference, at that age, in how they handle.

If you are an information junkie, I have a challenge for you... get familar with the precepts of Jan Bonsma... his ideas are true, no breed/breeder hype. I got a copy of his book when I started. It was worth the search, it was hard to find at the time.
Dr. J. Bonsma

Bonsma.GIF
Dr. Jon Bonsma, of the University of South Africa, Pretoria was known as the world's foremost authority on visual appraisal of beef breeding stock for functional efficiency. His specialities, backed by a lifetime of virtually worldwide research and observation, were ecology and adaptability for domestic animals, especially beef cattle. Bonsma stressed, again and again, the connection between femininity in beef breeding females and their early conception and long productive life. He stressed the imperativeness of strong masculinity plus structural soundness in bulls.
Dr. Bonsma was a main attraction at the 1969 Beckton Field Day, explaining his concepts of how physiology and anatomy relate to functional efficiency. His concepts were frequently at odds with whatever style was currently in favor in the show ring. On certain subjects, Bonsma's controversial view resulted in lively debate.
 
   / cattle start-up questions..
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Hey john,thats the reasoning behind getting the young calves and raising them as pets.Basically have a tame centerI really dont want to chase someone elses cows around,and I'm kinda looking forward to having the little ones around while I'm still getting started and getting all this other land fenced and planted.Hopefully they'll be ones that stay here their entire life while others come and go.Pensabout how big are we talking about?1 acre?And does anyone run a 'comma' shaped pen with the headgate at the end,does that make it any easier?I actually have 140 acres now with 60 that I'll be fencing in and hopefully more ajoining land will be available in the future.I'll look around for Bonsma's book(amazon?) and if I got that right,basically learning to look for 'girly' cows and mocho bulls,the way nature intended and our society killed.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #24  
Ok, plumboy, I am convinced you are weighing pros and cons of various options for your situation. Nobody's situation is the same. I certainly wish you the best of luck.... and am glad to know you have additonal land beyond what was initially discussed. It's possible you might find the Bonsma book in a library. You've got the right idea.... all of your cattle need to be reliably brought into your pens via use of feed.

Regarding making "pets" out of them...by this I mean having them so gentle you can walk up to them in pen or pasture and scratch them in their favorite "itchy" places. I admit it's hard to not do that, once they get sufficiently gentle.

I did that when first starting out... then discovered that as a pet calf grows up they don't understand you are a person and they are cows.... they behave toward you just like you were another bovine. This means that they can engage in dominance discussions.... friendly head butting to them is not so fun for you. Then, later when I had 10 or so such animals, it became dangerous to feed them in the pasture.... Cows of 1200 lbs would come up within inches seeking to get feed.... then but each other around trying to get to feed or my feed sack... let's just say you don't want to be caught between two super friendly 1200 lb cows who are pushing each other around so they can get closer to you than the other one is.

I've learned that it's best to stop just short of having a cow so gentle that you can pet her all over. My cows now come within about 3 feet, but back off if I approach them. Thus, I am able to move easily in and around the herd to check things out but have less risk of being crunched or stepped on by a too friendly critter. I admit that I do have several cows that eat cubes out of my hand.... and will follow me anywhere that I go when I have a feed sack in my hand... this is particularly nice when I need to pen them up...just walk into the open pen, pour out cubes into feed trough, then circle back around to the gate and close it while all the cows get a tasty treat.

Regarding pens. I have a "trap" that is about half an acre. I use it to hold an animal that needs extra attention... and may need to be brought into the pen on a regular basis for whatever reason. Then, there is an adjoining pen which, in my case, will hold about 20 cows and calves milling about. Since I am running about 30 cows, I also have another adjoining pen of similar size.... so all the animals will gladly come into the pens... if they get too crowded, the more timid ones... or flighty ones...will hang back and not enter a crowded pen. I have a lane between the two pens that allows sorting of stock when needed.

There are books that tell you how many square feet an animal needs under various circumstances.... riding in a trailer, working them in a pen, loose gathering into a pen, etc...

You asked about a comma arrangement. Yep, that's kinda the idea. The best working pens have an arrangement that moves the animals allowing them to follow a natural curve, ending in a small curved pen with a swing gate that pushes the animals into a chute. At the end of the chute there can be either a headgate or squeeze chute. Either of these is better than simply putting poles behind an animal and trying to work them that way... although I have worked many exactly that way. Get and learn how to use a nose lead ... kinda a pliars arrangement with round balls on the ends. You attach this into the nostrals and it's absolutely amazing how much control over an animal's head and total motion you have... assuming you attach a rope to the chain lead and dally it around something solid. It's the single most cost effective control device available... right up there with a roping rope.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #25  
Lots of advice, both for and against, and all of it good. The only thing that I would add is to tell what my 86 year old M-I-L says, "What would I do with the land if I didn't raise cattle". Ofcourse, these days she spends her time at the house telling us all what to do. :)

After being around cows for 25 years, I am in no way afraid of them but I am very, very careful. Over the years we have had a number of animals that, for one reason or another, have just gone "bad" and I mean wanting to kill you "bad". From the "pet" Hereford bull that decided that it was time for me to leave his pasture and chased me into the back of my pickup to the Brangus cow, the meanest animal I have ever known, that I had to clear the corral fence to get away from. So whatever you decide to get, never take them for granted, be careful and never let yourself get cornered.

Raising cattle is a very satisfying thing to do. I doubt that you'll ever get rich doing it but you'll always have a story to tell at the sale barn.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #26  
EastTexFrank is RIGHT.... it's the "pets" that can turn into the most dangerous animals...not often, not always...but it happens... dangerous because you start to "trust" them and turn your back on them. They consider you "one of the herd" and can decide to "teach you a lesson" the way they settle discussions with each other... fighting it out...but, you aren't tough enough to fight... that's why I have learned to avoid making complete pets out of them...gentle, yes, pets, NO!

In my opinion, the most dangerous animals are:

"pet cow" right after calving if you mess with her calf
"pet bull" anytime.... they can decide to just walk over you to get to a bag of feed...not being mean, just anxious to get to feed... and, of course, they can decide to get mean.

I'm with EastTexFrank, it can be rewarding.... and youi'll gather some stories.

Again, however, I urge you to start with at least one 3-in-one dog gentle (not pet) lead cow and heifers if you must... for 4H or FFA projects, although the calf at side of 3-in-ones can also be those projects. Young weaned stock are 10 times easier to gentle down and handle with a lead cow around than without. Ask some cowman you know that they think of the idea of at least one gentle lead cow at the outset.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #27  
Ok what do you plan on doing with the calves? This will have an outcome on your breed selection. Look for good momma cows that milk well,and are fairly manageable with easy calving. The British Breeds are good for this. Stay away from the exoctics.

You mention ponds in each pasture. I take it this is for drinking water? If so be careful that they do not foul it too quickly on you. I'd have a back up plan for water readdy.

You should only need about 30% legume to keep a good grass mixture growing. Trefoil,and crown vetch are also good nitrogen producers that do not bloat. Brome grass is a good choice in the mixture.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #28  
Three years ago I started with 7 polled hereford cows. They calved within 3 weeks and were bred back to a Brangus. Since that time thru separation and ratational grazing, I have kept them bred back to an Angus bull and am getting some really nice black baldies. This bull had great EPD's and it is showing in that the heifers are having no problems in calving. Great birth weight and at birth are really active.
I was raised around polled herefords and am partial to them, but at the sale, the black baldies and tiger stripes always bring the top dollar. Another trend is the buyers paying more for calves with less ear and sheath. So, I guess I will go with the market. :rolleyes:
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #29  
Another thing is to get a few older cows along with some younger ones. This will give you a few calves at first to learn with instead of all at once. Be wary though of a fence breaker,it will ruin a herd real quick!! Get rid of it if you get one. You'll have to be comfortable being in with the animals. Just don't take them for granted,but also don't be scared of them. Best place for an overly agressive bull is on your table,not in your herd. No matter what anyone says!!
AI is a good idea,but keep a bull around for clean-up.
 
   / cattle start-up questions.. #30  
Plumboy, I like several others have raised cattle all my working life. I'll have to agree with redlevel. He gave some darn good advice.



Only thing I'll add is you need to know if you like cattle. If you don't like them don't buy them. To like cattle you must like the calving check in the middle of the night, you must like reaching inside a cow to get the legs turned right so you can pull that calf . You must like cows to do those things. Most of the time if I have to use a vet the calf will be dead by the time I get one here. So I have to do those jobs myself. Is it fun? No but I like cattle and cattle have to be cared for night and day 365 days a year. Doesn't matter if it's one or a thousand. They need care at times.

So if you like cattle buy some and have fun. I do every day and as long as I can walk I'll have cattle to care for.
 

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