slowrev
Elite Member
Yes those rebates can make the difference. Unfortunately my last heat/pump purchase rebate was only for AC not heat pump. Check carefully, don't believe the salesman. Been burnt.
Central air conditioning $$$???
- Thread starter kubmech
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Alan L.
Elite Member
I have 880 square feet of well-insulated living space inside a metal building, which is also insulated. It gets seriously hot around here and I wanted it 68 when its 105 outside. Contractor wanted to put in a 2-ton, I went for a 3-ton Rheem, 10-SEER. Entire cost including flexducts and electrical (to the units) was $2950. My contractor lives about a half-mile from me and he seems to be doing very well. He has 8 tons of A/C in his house, a very nice place.
This was Dec 2000 when this was done. When I lived in a 2000 square foot house, we had two units 1.5 tons for the master suite and 3 tons for the rest. I cannot imagine only having 2.5 tons in a 2000 square foot house, but if it doesn't get seriously hot, its probably OK.
He tried to feed me bull about having too much A/C, not running enough, and thus not removing enough moisture from the air. Here in Texas, its hard to get too much A/C.
I cannot believe the disparity in the cost of things here versus up north. Construction costs around here are $60 to $70 per foot for standard construction, and when I read magazines featuring homes up north I see $120 a foot and more. Could it be that hardly anyone does basements down here? Or that the trades are just cheaper here?
This was Dec 2000 when this was done. When I lived in a 2000 square foot house, we had two units 1.5 tons for the master suite and 3 tons for the rest. I cannot imagine only having 2.5 tons in a 2000 square foot house, but if it doesn't get seriously hot, its probably OK.
He tried to feed me bull about having too much A/C, not running enough, and thus not removing enough moisture from the air. Here in Texas, its hard to get too much A/C.
I cannot believe the disparity in the cost of things here versus up north. Construction costs around here are $60 to $70 per foot for standard construction, and when I read magazines featuring homes up north I see $120 a foot and more. Could it be that hardly anyone does basements down here? Or that the trades are just cheaper here?
_RaT_
Super Member
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"He tried to feed me bull about having too much A/C, not running enough, and thus not removing enough moisture from the air. Here in Texas, its hard to get too much A/C."
Thats not bull, thats fact. If you have to go that oversized, then your way undersized on R value and when or if your electricity costs escalate in cost, your really going to feel the heat.
Thats not bull, thats fact. If you have to go that oversized, then your way undersized on R value and when or if your electricity costs escalate in cost, your really going to feel the heat.
PineRidge
Super Member
If you have ever been in a cave then I'm sure that you will remember the feeling of cold and damp. It's a most uncomfortable feeling. AC units are designed so that as ambient loads increase they will run on an almost constant basis. This is to control humidity first (latent heat) and lower the temperature second (sensible heat).
If a unit is way over sized it will quickly cool down the structure without removing the humidity first. It the system is undersized it will do a good job of taking the moisture out of the structure but a lousy job of dropping the temperature. Thats why a balance if the two is needed.
That said, my home is roughly 2000 square foot on the living area (downstairs excluded) and we cool it with a 2-1/2 tom AC unit. The temperature is always at set point on the digital stat even in the hottest weather and the humidity is minimal.
If you are dealing with a reputable HVAC company then I suggest that you let them design your system and follow the sizing recommendations that they make. Otherwise you could be sorry at a later time.
If a unit is way over sized it will quickly cool down the structure without removing the humidity first. It the system is undersized it will do a good job of taking the moisture out of the structure but a lousy job of dropping the temperature. Thats why a balance if the two is needed.
That said, my home is roughly 2000 square foot on the living area (downstairs excluded) and we cool it with a 2-1/2 tom AC unit. The temperature is always at set point on the digital stat even in the hottest weather and the humidity is minimal.
If you are dealing with a reputable HVAC company then I suggest that you let them design your system and follow the sizing recommendations that they make. Otherwise you could be sorry at a later time.
Kubmech,
I know prices differ across the U.S., but here's another quote for reference.
The quote includes the following.
1. Remove existing furnace, supply plenum and return plenum.
2. Install new 90,000 BTU - 80% Elite Series Lennox Furnace.
3. Install new 24,000 BTU -10 Seer 2 Ton- Elite Series Lennox Air Conditioner (this will be a new add--currently using window A/C unit)
4. Installation of new supply plenum
5. Installation of new return plenum
6. Installation of 3 returns with white 4 X 12 grills (these will be new returns as the number of returns we have is not sufficient for A/C).
7. Conversion of one supply into a return (we have a den that has two supplies and it gets hot in there so only one is needed and we need the additional return).
8. Installation of a new supply in one of our bathrooms. Currently this room does not have a heat supply other than what goes through the door.
Total Bill for the above--$5000.
Hey Murph,
You were kind enough to counsel me on the last quote I received. I know you don't sell Lennox, but what's your opinion on the above equipment. I believe you told me they had some problems years ago--do you feel they have their issues worked out?
I wish you were an hour closer--I'd have you do this.
Bob
I know prices differ across the U.S., but here's another quote for reference.
The quote includes the following.
1. Remove existing furnace, supply plenum and return plenum.
2. Install new 90,000 BTU - 80% Elite Series Lennox Furnace.
3. Install new 24,000 BTU -10 Seer 2 Ton- Elite Series Lennox Air Conditioner (this will be a new add--currently using window A/C unit)
4. Installation of new supply plenum
5. Installation of new return plenum
6. Installation of 3 returns with white 4 X 12 grills (these will be new returns as the number of returns we have is not sufficient for A/C).
7. Conversion of one supply into a return (we have a den that has two supplies and it gets hot in there so only one is needed and we need the additional return).
8. Installation of a new supply in one of our bathrooms. Currently this room does not have a heat supply other than what goes through the door.
Total Bill for the above--$5000.
Hey Murph,
You were kind enough to counsel me on the last quote I received. I know you don't sell Lennox, but what's your opinion on the above equipment. I believe you told me they had some problems years ago--do you feel they have their issues worked out?
I wish you were an hour closer--I'd have you do this.
Bob
BillyP
Veteran Member
We had a Lennox heat pump in our old house. It was installed in 1978. We sold the house in 1999 and the unit was still going strong. The only thing I ever had to do to it was replace a start capacitor and oil the fan motors.
Thanks Billy,
My parents house has a Lennox and it's been good for them as well.
I know they had some problems at one point at which time the came out with or purchased from another company the Armstrong line. I think Armstrong is their low end unit as compared to the Lennox line, but don't remember for sure. Murph was a big help last time I looked at this.
Bob
My parents house has a Lennox and it's been good for them as well.
I know they had some problems at one point at which time the came out with or purchased from another company the Armstrong line. I think Armstrong is their low end unit as compared to the Lennox line, but don't remember for sure. Murph was a big help last time I looked at this.
Bob
BillyP
Veteran Member
A good friend and neighbor of mine (an AC guy) talked me into installing Janitrol heat pumps, for this house. He said they were good units so I guess I'll wait and see. I think he was being honest cause he wasn't selling them. He worked on my old Carriers every summer and wouldn't take any pay.
He retired at 55 from American Electric Power two years ago and died last year. He was a heck of a guy.
He retired at 55 from American Electric Power two years ago and died last year. He was a heck of a guy.
Well Billy--I can give you some feedback on my Janitrol furnace. It's at least 20 years old and has been neglected (by me) since we moved in in 1998. I've replaced filters, but that's about it. It's still going strong and I'm only replacing it due to it's age and the fact we will be asking more of the furnace once we install the central air. So if my experience is any indication, you should have trouble free years from your Janitrol.
BTW--the new investment will prompt me to take better care of the new furnace/ac.
Bob
BTW--the new investment will prompt me to take better care of the new furnace/ac.
Bob
PineRidge
Super Member
Years ago Janitrol got a bad rap when they made the series 44 round AC condensing unit. They were very unreliable and earned them the name "Janijunk" from the service technicians. But Janitrol soon rallied and started making newer, better, and more reliable equipment. I think they have completely changed their image.
slowrev
Elite Member
Bob, That quote sounds pretty reasonable for all of that work/materials.
Alan L.
Elite Member
Rat:
My daughter's house A/C unit is sized "by the book". When its hot, they're hot. The unit is not big enough. And the R-values are fine, as they are in my abode. I have a rent house "sized by the book", my tenants complain that it won't cool down when it gets really hot. The house is 2 years old and well-insulated.
Meanwhile, my house stays 68 when its 105, and absolutely no problem with the humidity levels. The building is insulated so the "attic" never even gets as hot as it is outside, and the living quarters has 8 inches in walls and ceiling on top of that.
An A/C can probalby be too big, but "the book" is wrong in north Texas.
My daughter's house A/C unit is sized "by the book". When its hot, they're hot. The unit is not big enough. And the R-values are fine, as they are in my abode. I have a rent house "sized by the book", my tenants complain that it won't cool down when it gets really hot. The house is 2 years old and well-insulated.
Meanwhile, my house stays 68 when its 105, and absolutely no problem with the humidity levels. The building is insulated so the "attic" never even gets as hot as it is outside, and the living quarters has 8 inches in walls and ceiling on top of that.
An A/C can probalby be too big, but "the book" is wrong in north Texas.
Slowrev,
Yes--I've had some comparable pricing done and it's the best I've seen. One other quote was close in total dollars, but they were selling me "low end" (for lack of a better description) equipment.
I'll also say this is a smaller operation and I realize a larger company will have more overhead. This guy does his own inspection of the house, his own quoting and with the help of another employee does the install. A larger firm would have more than one person for the job from start to finish. I also realize that a larger company will have more services down the road including future service work if it were necessary. That is something each person needs to resolve when they are looking at this.
I typically would stick with a larger company for this type of work, but I happen to know this guy well and he's done an install for a friend as well as a changeover from an old oil burning water based heating system to a forced warm air system for my cousin. Both parties are very happy to this day.
Bob
Yes--I've had some comparable pricing done and it's the best I've seen. One other quote was close in total dollars, but they were selling me "low end" (for lack of a better description) equipment.
I'll also say this is a smaller operation and I realize a larger company will have more overhead. This guy does his own inspection of the house, his own quoting and with the help of another employee does the install. A larger firm would have more than one person for the job from start to finish. I also realize that a larger company will have more services down the road including future service work if it were necessary. That is something each person needs to resolve when they are looking at this.
I typically would stick with a larger company for this type of work, but I happen to know this guy well and he's done an install for a friend as well as a changeover from an old oil burning water based heating system to a forced warm air system for my cousin. Both parties are very happy to this day.
Bob
_RaT_
Super Member
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Hi Alan. Here in Norhtern California there are 100 degree days as well. For the most part, we don't have much humidity. My understanding talking with the various HVAC guys in our area is that we definitely size our AC's correctly. You may have a point and having a climate like yours with a different humidty could certainly influence how things are done. My planned home is most likely going to be ICF or insulated concrete form. I will in all likelyhood be undersizing the AC unit. That brings me to the next question. What are the most desireable methods to use with AC only units. That is, are there better ways to duct it, brands of AC only units? Would I be better to have a Heating/AC unit as a back up to radiant floor heating?
I ask as electricity where I am at is quite expensive.
I ask as electricity where I am at is quite expensive.
slowrev
Elite Member
Bob,
If this guy has been in the business a while and seems like he will be for some time, I would give him the business. You are not as likely to get lost in the crowd with a small business as with a large one. I also like to help out the hard working honest "little" guys.
Small one or 2 guy operations tend to do better work as they cannot blame it on not being able to get good help.
If this guy has been in the business a while and seems like he will be for some time, I would give him the business. You are not as likely to get lost in the crowd with a small business as with a large one. I also like to help out the hard working honest "little" guys.
Small one or 2 guy operations tend to do better work as they cannot blame it on not being able to get good help.
thcri
Elite Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( So Murph, I plan to use radiant floor heating. I would like to install the air ducts for the AC in the insulated attic along with the air handler. Does that make sense and if you duct it, what is the preferable duct material? The compressor would sit outside of course, what would be the maximum distance the compressor could be from the handler?
Since you turned me on to expert GPS I have shown other folks and they too are amazed. Thanks, Rat... )</font>
Been gone for a while so I will try and answer everyone's question here in this post. Starting with you Rat.
If your putting the wirsbo in the floor then go with the overhead duct system. I am not sure if your in a high humidity area but I recomend that you get an air handler with a DC variable blower and let it run at the slow speed which is about 400 CFM. This way you will circulate air all the time keeping the duct system warm. You could even put a timer on the blower to run 20 minutes out of an hour or something like that. We Won't and I repeat we won't put and attic installation in without the variable blower.
Alan, down south your tonnage per square foot is much greater. You have much higher temperatures. We have lower temperatures with high humidity. If the area you live in has high humidity you do have to watch for oversizing. An air conditioner can not and I repeat can not remove humidity if it isn't running. I get in more trouble around here by oversizing than I do undersizing. As far as building cost, yes Minnesota is way more because of basements, but our construction is so much different than yours also. Windows, Rvalues and ventilation codes. I have relatives in Texas and their house in Texas runs around 180,000. Here in Minnesota that same house built to our codes would run around 500,000.
Bob In Mn, The prices you are are fairly competitive. As far as Lennox. Good product. I am not fond of their furnaces because it is not their furnace. The Lennox pulse had a great name and was what made Lennox famous. However, problems forced Lennox to abandon the furnace. They had no choice but to buy out another line. The air conditioners are as good as any. Again as in buying tractors if you comfortable with the dealer then go for it. Over all Lennox will take good care of you and the product will last. OM me if you have any other questions. I know most of the dealers up there, let me know who your dealing with.
For you guys that asked about Janitrol/Goodman. Great product and very competitive. I was just in the Houston plant for two days. They have become one of the largest manufactures next to Carrier. Impressive. They built the company just like, Dell, Southwest Airlines and yes the Waltons. Great product at a great price. No frills or thrills.
Now if I didn't answer any questions don't feel left out. I had to go through about 10 posts and may have missed some. If you want you can ask here or PM me.
murph
Wow that has to go down as my longest post. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Since you turned me on to expert GPS I have shown other folks and they too are amazed. Thanks, Rat... )</font>
Been gone for a while so I will try and answer everyone's question here in this post. Starting with you Rat.
If your putting the wirsbo in the floor then go with the overhead duct system. I am not sure if your in a high humidity area but I recomend that you get an air handler with a DC variable blower and let it run at the slow speed which is about 400 CFM. This way you will circulate air all the time keeping the duct system warm. You could even put a timer on the blower to run 20 minutes out of an hour or something like that. We Won't and I repeat we won't put and attic installation in without the variable blower.
Alan, down south your tonnage per square foot is much greater. You have much higher temperatures. We have lower temperatures with high humidity. If the area you live in has high humidity you do have to watch for oversizing. An air conditioner can not and I repeat can not remove humidity if it isn't running. I get in more trouble around here by oversizing than I do undersizing. As far as building cost, yes Minnesota is way more because of basements, but our construction is so much different than yours also. Windows, Rvalues and ventilation codes. I have relatives in Texas and their house in Texas runs around 180,000. Here in Minnesota that same house built to our codes would run around 500,000.
Bob In Mn, The prices you are are fairly competitive. As far as Lennox. Good product. I am not fond of their furnaces because it is not their furnace. The Lennox pulse had a great name and was what made Lennox famous. However, problems forced Lennox to abandon the furnace. They had no choice but to buy out another line. The air conditioners are as good as any. Again as in buying tractors if you comfortable with the dealer then go for it. Over all Lennox will take good care of you and the product will last. OM me if you have any other questions. I know most of the dealers up there, let me know who your dealing with.
For you guys that asked about Janitrol/Goodman. Great product and very competitive. I was just in the Houston plant for two days. They have become one of the largest manufactures next to Carrier. Impressive. They built the company just like, Dell, Southwest Airlines and yes the Waltons. Great product at a great price. No frills or thrills.
Now if I didn't answer any questions don't feel left out. I had to go through about 10 posts and may have missed some. If you want you can ask here or PM me.
murph
Wow that has to go down as my longest post. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Alan L.
Elite Member
Rat, we have medium humidity here in north Texas. much more than West Texas and the mountain states, much less than Houston. The most humid days are those in the spring in the 80s. When it gets to be 100 degrees, there usually is not much humidity, although more than Arizona or New Mexico.
I can understand the concept of the unit not running long enough, but when you see a unit running constantly and still not cooling down to the desired temp, you want to strangle the guy that decided to put the undersized unit in. I don't strangle, I just insist on a bigger unit up front.
One guy told me the A/C should only be asked to pull the temp down about 20 degrees. So if its 100, then you get it down to 80. Sorry, I'm not comfortable at 80 degrees, or even 75, that is, when I am indoors trying to relax.
I can understand the concept of the unit not running long enough, but when you see a unit running constantly and still not cooling down to the desired temp, you want to strangle the guy that decided to put the undersized unit in. I don't strangle, I just insist on a bigger unit up front.
One guy told me the A/C should only be asked to pull the temp down about 20 degrees. So if its 100, then you get it down to 80. Sorry, I'm not comfortable at 80 degrees, or even 75, that is, when I am indoors trying to relax.
Bird
Rest in Peace
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm not comfortable at 80 degrees, or even 75 )</font>
Me, too, Alan. And my wife's even more particular. We keep it at 70 year round and if it varies in either direction more than 2 degrees my wife will complain about it being too hot or too cold. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Me, too, Alan. And my wife's even more particular. We keep it at 70 year round and if it varies in either direction more than 2 degrees my wife will complain about it being too hot or too cold. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
thcri
Elite Member
You guys do have the option of a two stage system. This will give you the power for the high temp days and the humidity removal for the lower temp days. As far as an A/C running constantly, that is ok. A compressor will suck an awful lot of power just in the start up. You can run a compressor for a long time versus starting them up and shutting them down too much. Also a compressor is designed to run more than not. Oil from the compressor runs through the system and a compressor is lubricated much better on a longer run time. I would look into the two stage system.
murph
murph
