Central heat and air unit (standard vs geothermal)

[kcflhrc]

We put in a new 4 ton Heil Heat Pump when we moved in with propane backup. Full warranty for 10 years but that is pretty standard warranty on better units. I would have never spent the money on Geothermal. I put the Heil unit in for $5k

 

[techman]

Something that was said to me when I was looking at different heating and cooling systems was the lifespan of the unit. It was mentioned to me that a standard heat pump was designed to last 8-10 years and then you were replacing it again. Where as the Geo units were going to last you a longer amount of time before replacing it.

There is no "official" number, but several industry/geo statements that you typically see double the life with geo units installed indoors. The DOE makes the statement: "System life is estimated at 25 years for the inside components and 50+ years for the ground loop. "

So most say yes it does have longer life.

Paul

 

[Country Geek]

I did a geo install last fall and covered it here pretty extensively and wrote three blog entries, which you can see (in reverse order here: Unjustified Precision: March 2015

About the ground being torn up for a trench (horizontal) system: yes, it makes a massive mess. My wife was none too pleased at what they did to my pasture. But it bounced back. The system was finished last November, I threw down some fescue seed (literally, I just put it out there with a hand spreader, no fertilizer or any treatment) and now you can't tell any work was done. Which is pretty good considering that my soil is just pre-bricks (red clay).

In my case it was economical because my state has a tax credit for geo that pretty much bridged the difference that was left over after the federal credits were applied.

I see lower bills, in my blog entry I laid out the heating savings. Summer isn't over yet, when it is i will do the cooling savings. But I now set my thermostat at more comfortable temps (70 in the winter and 74 in the summer) and pay significantly less than I paid with less comfortable settings (68 and 77).

The only kink in my plan is that propane got much cheaper this year, so my heat savings were less than planned and if the price stays low, will not be as much as expected for a while. But the good news is that I also put in a propane backup furnace, so if it gets cheap enough I can still use it to heat my house

 

[MacLawn]

When y'all say "indoor" units for geothermal, I reckon you mean that the compressor is located in crawl space, basement, etc.? In my case, it'd be the crawlspace since we don't have basements so much in the south. I have been researching geothermal since '02, so I've read a heap about them, and have some sites bookmarked. And, I just had our local geo man who has been in bidness for about 15 years come give me an estimate. Here's what it'd cost me in Columbia County, GA (Augusta area), 1800 sq. ft. house, using current attic ducts, digging long trenches for a yard mess up - $16,000 cold solid lucres! That's after all the state, fed, GA Power rebates and tax credits. Add $5,000 for three 500' drilled holes, which I prefer. If I were younger, I know I'd have it done, but at 66, I don't know if I'll live long enough to get return on money, enough to recover the cost. I'm total electric, even my own excellent well water. Bill last month for keeping house at 73º was $224.00. In winter keeping house at 74º is about 130, but I also use wood heat. I have fibromyalgia mess, so I canno' tolerate extremes with this pain. Geek, you know I've been following your threads, and look forward to your summer report. You use the Water Furnace®? That's what my man recommends.

 

[Country Geek]

Geek, you know I've been following your threads, and look forward to your summer report. You use the Water Furnace®? That's what my man recommends.

No, my system is a ClimateMaster Tranquility.

 

[techman]

ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace are basically equal

paul

 

[truckdiagnostics]

In Texas you can use a good air to air heat pump and get the same pay back IMO. I do not believe geothermal (ground source) heat pump in Texas would have the pay back. Air to air Heat pumps have come a long ways. The big difference between climate master and water furnace is water furnace has a much tighter dealer network. I have two geothermal units(water furnance) that have been in for going on 15 years. One heats and cools 3,300 sq feet. it is a synergy 3 with the built in air handler. I have two zones forced air it makes all potable hot water and heats a 840 sq garage to 45 all winter. It just runs and switches between the zones as I have then set up as priority. When it get real cold it never shuts off just switches between the zones. Had to replace the compressor last year, $2,000. The temp in our house stays at 69 winter 72 summer and it will make hot water all day long.
We have another unit similar to the 5 series (500r11) that heats in floor heat 1,700 sq to 60 degrees all winter and it heats a 1,200 office to 69 and cools to 72 with a water coil in an air handler. This unit is a beast and I work the snot out of it! It is well over 15 years old as I bought it used and installed myself. It is the way to go!
Here is my take on this, the rebates allows the dealers to up sell to a unit that we just don't need. If I had to do again i would do the house with a 5 series also. Put the heating in for a forced air gas separate contractor, then put an A water coil in using it as an air handler(geothermal guy), just like I did for the office. This gets me back up gas heat. If a guy knows what he is doing he can make it work like the synergy 3 and if he can't i would not want him putting my unit in.
When I did this 15 years ago there was one dealer in our area he did refrigeration and got into the geothermal, he is good he stopped installing them now as he is semi-retired and makes more money fixing all the units that the hvac guys put in. He works on all of them he also agrees climate master and water furnace units are the same. However, it is his and my opinion almost any HVAC guy can buy a climate master, however water furnace won't sell to just anybody.
I have been lucky, simple issues, however if I was in a cold climate I would want a good back up heat. The electric grid in plenum of the synergy 3 is useless. Replacing the compressor took 4 days and if that was in the dead of winter.... Also, if you loose power a geothermal heat pump would take a generator the size of a house to start the compressor. Where I can run back up gas on much smaller generator.

 

[Redneck in training]

I didn't read all the post. We installed geo about 10 years ago. Our utility had "heating rate" just little above wholesale so heating our house was was way cheaper than NG not speaking about propane. We have floor heating and forced air AC.
If I would build house now I would use mini-split units and invest the saving in solar panels. The latest models of mini-splits are cheap, phenomenally efficient, they are very quiet, easy to install, easy to replace, every room can have its own temperature control and you have great redundancy if something goes wrong with the one of the units.

If you lose power then you can turn all units off except the critical one or two. You could get by with much smaller generator.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I put geo in a few yrs back. one thing I have found is my electric bill did go up, which I had expected. My overall energy costs are down. course my payback was calculated when oil went up to $4.50/gal, now it is down some. But like the geo over burning oil, much cleaner.
My upstairs unit is undersized, so it runs too much. sizing was done on manual J calculations, but there is some estimating you have to do there, and mine came up a little short. I've been thinking about swapping my 2 units, since the downstairs unit runs less than the upstairs, and is a size larger than the upstairs.

another option would be to replace part of the upstairs with minisplits. it would be easy for me to do the way it's laid out.

 

[LD1]

average was $160/month (yearly average) in NE PA. With solar I have lowered my bills to $100/month average.

Paul

How much did your solar system cost? Batteries or purley grid tied? Net metering?


As to geo, I think contractors are ripping people off. I bet when the 35% credit goes away, the end cost will still be about the same.

After calling, getting quotes for geo vs air, then pricing what "I" can buy everything for, there ain't a ton of difference. My quotes were about 8k difference also, but that was before the rebates and me doing all excavation.

Well, there certainly ain't 8k worth of labor and parts difference. "Ah but the 35% rebate" they all said. Brings it to only $1500 more. Well it should only be 1500 more to start, and IMO the rebate should actually make it cost less.

My conclusion, geo installers are taking YOUR rebate by jacking up the prices. Then make you feel all warm and fuzzy getting go claim it.

Proof: one geo quote for a climatemaster, desuperheater, etc etc with me doing excavating was 18,800. I can buy ALL the exact same stuff for $12k so what exactly are they charging $6800 on??? Half a day to stick the thing in the basement and hook up waterlines.