Central heat and air unit (standard vs geothermal)

[Bikewanderer]

I have been happy with mine. For a large house with eight people living here and 7000 square feet finished and heated, my house uses about 100kw per day in summer and winter. About 70 of that is heating and cooling. That's a $400 bill six months of the year in ks with .15/kwhr power costs. With propane so cheap I'll probably leave the propane fireplace turned up to carry some of the heat load.

I do wish I had stepped up into a vrf system with variable stage circulating pumps.

 

[wngsprd]

We've been very pleased with our geothermal...installed it 17 years ago when we added on to our house and outgrew the old heat pump. We have horizontal loops out in our field, and the equipment in our crawl space.

Hard to do a savings calculation since we more than doubled our square feet when we installed it for a growing family.

4 years ago we had to replace the original Carrier system, and chose ClimateMaster...this switch to a two stage more efficient unit reduced our electricity usage by 30%. The system has run great with no problems. Would have considered Water Furnace, too, but wasn't sure about the smaller local dealers.

Since the filters (requires 2 that are 24x20x2 inches) aren't available anywhere locally that I can find, I order them over the internet, and would recommend Furnacefilterwarehouse.com for great service.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[davesl708]

I installed my GEO 4 years ago. Went with vertical wells to get the best results and most consistent ground temps. With the 30% credit it was only $1,000 more than the top of the line NG units quoted. Love not having that noisy outside unit. My unit has a two stage system. The second stage has only came on once.

My housed is total electric with a hot tub. Highest bill this year has been $65. Highest bill last winter was $114. Definitely an advantage in cooling. Prior to the GEO my bills were always over $150 per month with the NG and outside unit. I expect payback in about 7 years.
Inside unit has a 10 year warranty and the ground loop has a 50 year warranty.

Would never consider going back to NG or outside heat pumps.

 

[davesl708]

I installed my GEO 4 years ago. Went with vertical wells to get the best results and most consistent ground temps. With the 30% credit it was only $1,000 more than the top of the line NG units quoted. Love not having that noisy outside unit. My unit has a two stage system. The second stage has only came on once.

My housed is total electric with a hot tub. Highest bill this year has been $65. Highest bill last winter was $114. Definitely an advantage in cooling. Prior to the GEO my bills were always over $150 per month with the NG and outside unit. I expect payback in about 7 years.
Inside unit has a 10 year warranty and the ground loop has a 50 year warranty.

Would never consider going back to NG or outside heat pumps.

 

[techman]

How much did your solar system cost? Batteries or purley grid tied? Net metering?

I put the solar in almost 3 years ago. I did the system myself, but to qualify for some of the rebates/credits it needed to be installed by a certified installer. So a friend who does this as a business (and is state certified) ran it through his books. My "official" cost was slightly over $ 30K, but my real cost was $ 10K. It is 9.2KW on a ground array. It is grid tied and we have net metering in our state. No batteries.

As for your other comments, I am sure that a lot of dealers have "adjusted" their prices to "absorb" the rebates/credits and still make a nice margin. The prices charged by many for geo systems are not proportional to their costs, partly because it is unique and "high tech". When I installed my geo units in 2005 (did the job myself) it cost $ 8K for two units. That included all costs.

In response to another poster, I did install resistance back for "just in case" situations. Last winter was quite cold and it is the first time in 10 years that it called for a bit of backup heat (only one night for some short periods). I knew when they came on from the smell of burning off 10 years of dust on the resistance coils.

Also a comment about power outages. I have a 10 KW genset for outages. It will easily run my two geo units along with all of the normal lighting, TVs etc. With their lower power draw (higher efficiency) they hum along comfortably on the generator. I know this well after a 2 day outage several winters ago during a very cold snap.

paul

 

[Country Geek]

If I would build house now I would use mini-split units and invest the saving in solar panels. The latest models of mini-splits are cheap, phenomenally efficient, they are very quiet, easy to install, easy to replace, every room can have its own temperature control and you have great redundancy if something goes wrong with the one of the units.

If you lose power then you can turn all units off except the critical one or two. You could get by with much smaller generator.

Minisplits are really cool and I looked seriously at them because of my house design. My house doesn't work well with zones because it's basically all one big open space with a separate master bedroom wing and one extra closed off bedroom. So I would have one zone with 2000 sf and a second with 500sf and everyone who looked at it said zones don't work well unless they are roughly equal in size and conditioning requirements. I'm very happy with my geo system and performance but one alternative I considered was a standard heat pump system for the big open part of the house and a minisplit for the master bedroom wing. One reason I didn't do that, besides (if I'm honest with myself) the cool tech aspect of geothermal, was that it didn't seem like minisplit is an established technology around here... very few knew anything about it.

Who knows maybe someday I will still put that minisplit into the MBR, like you said it would be handy in power outages to run just that room from a relatively inexpensive generator, and would have the advantage of having cooling as well as heating. But again being real about it, power outages are much rarer events that I anticipated when I moved out to the sticks. I already put in a backup propane heater for power outages, how much more do I want to spend preparing for such a rare event?

 

[truckdiagnostics]

My son install a lot of mini splits and the work well when they work. trouble shooting is difficult. The line sets are easy to put in however the issues is what do you do with the condensate drain? The pump they supply is junk and they now gravity drain when ever possible. Biggest issue they have!

 

[Loadstar]

My son install a lot of mini splits and the work well when they work. trouble shooting is difficult. The line sets are easy to put in however the issues is what do you do with the condensate drain? The pump they supply is junk and they now gravity drain when ever possible. Biggest issue they have!

Spot on accurate. They do have better aftermarket pumps out now and local dealers do not even offer the factory pumps. Often in factories or industrial applications large condensate pumps are hung directly under the evaporator. The other downfall is manufacturers obsolete parts of the unit. If I have to change a major component I usually check on other major components to see if they are obsolete. Say a fan motor fails and you find out the board is obsolete, why waste the labor and money. Usually company's opt for a changeout. I'm not always a fan of their 30 language one page instructions either.

 

[LD1]

I put the solar in almost 3 years ago. I did the system myself, but to qualify for some of the rebates/credits it needed to be installed by a certified installer. So a friend who does this as a business (and is state certified) ran it through his books. My "official" cost was slightly over $ 30K, but my real cost was $ 10K. It is 9.2KW on a ground array. It is grid tied and we have net metering in our state. No batteries.

So saving $60/month on a 10k system is almost a 14 year payback. And thats with the "friend hookup" AND net metering. I dont have net metering or a friend "hookup". Solar still isnt justifiable IMO in my area.

partly because it is unique and "high tech".

I dont see anything high tech about a geo system. IF anything it takes less tech and less special tools since you dont have to deal with charging freon. Sure, excavation depending on loop type can be significant, but my quote were for ME doing the digging. All they would have to do is install furnace, lay line in trench, and plumb. I'll backfill. ITs a single unit. No setting outdoor unit AND indoor unit, running copper, charging, etc. So with me doing all excavating, I dont see the need to charge 8k more for equipment that only cost 2k more. IS there really 6k more labor involved since I AM doing the dirt work??? I think not. They are just taking a hugh chunk of my rebate is all. Just enough so the average person only sees the bottom line of geo only being 1500-2000 more in the end and thinks its worth it for a much more efficient system. And dont get me wrong, it still is worth it when you put numbers to paper. But just a crock on their part. IMO, geo isnt worth 8k more (about double the cost of air-source). Therefore when the rebates go away, we are either gonna see prices drop alot, or not alot of people installing thing. Just my opinion ofcourse.

 

[TheGoose]

Notice out of all the posters how every single one is from the North? Illinois, NC, etc. I stand by my statement that in predominately AC climate like Tx GSHP is not nearly as cost efficient as climates that are predominately heating. We are only cooling ~20-30 deg F whereas in the North you are heating at least 40,50, and 60 deg F. You can get ASHP (air source) with an efficiency approaching 20 SEER for much less money for cooling. With ASHP you cannot heat once the outside temperatures gets in the 30's.

I disagree with an earlier poster that it makes more sense in northern climes, since AC cost in the south can be as significant as heating in the north. The additional cost is a factor, but will be savings and enhanced reliability make up for it. I say enhanced reliability since the units are indoors and do not see the effects of sun and weather.


Paul