Changing tranny fluid-no one wants to drop the pan anymore

[gordon21]

I called several local shops to verify the price on a transmission fluid change. Apparently things have changed a lot in the past several years. No one wants to drop the pan and change the fluid the old fashioned way. All they want to do is suction out the fluid and replace it. 14 old qts out and 14 new back in. Never touch a wrench.

Isn't there a filter or screen that needs to be cleaned in a 2006 F-150 tranny??? I find it hard to believe that all the crud and metal shavings is going to be vacuumed out. There is 2 years worth in there from when the truck was new.

The only place that will drop the pan is the Ford dealer and that costs $15 more than the regular service. Oddly enough, they tell me that if they drop the pan, they only replace 6 qts. The vacuum method replaces 14 qts

What is going on here????

14qt suction method has been quoted $125-162

 

[NewToy]

I have never seen an auto tranny without a filter/screen assy. I just had mine changed in my Chevy 1 ton van and always get the filter/fluid changed for around $100.00. I get it done every 20k miles and have never had any problems. That first change will shock you at the amount of trash in the bottom of the pan. Like you, I can't see their sucker gadget getting all that out. I like the idea of getting all the fluid out though. Maybe you can have them suck it and then drop the pan for thorough cleaning and filter change.

John

 

[orezok]

I believe that the "suction" method they are talking about is actually a fluid exchange unit. What it does is that they disconnect the cooler in line from the cooler in at the radiator and connect it to the waste side of the machine. The "new" fluid line from the machine is then connected to the cooler inlet. The vehicle is started and 100% of the fluid is "exchanged" including the fluid in the torque converter, lines and cooler. The correct amount of fluid is put into the machine before starting the vehicle, not in the vehicle itself. This is why it takes about twice as much fluid.

It has it's good points and bad points. Leaving half your burnt fluid in the torque converter during a pan drop is not good. Not inspecting the pan is not good.

Overall the new method is probably better in the long run. You might want to drop the pan every 3 years or so for the filter. Newer transmission rarely clog filters or have junk in the pan. If they do, you're going to be doing a rebuild anyway, changing fluid NEVER fixed a problem transmission.

You might have an earlier warning of transmission failure with a pan drop, but the cost will be the same if you wait for the ultimate failure (except for the possible inconvenience). I personally would not go to a shop that repaired transmissions, but go to one that installed factory remanufactured units only. By the way, I used to own a tranny shop.

Most transmissions will give you "notice" prior to a total failure.

 

[podagrower]

I think everyone else covered it, but. Most of the local "quick lube" places want to do a fluid exchange. When I had this done in my truck I was amazed how much smoother it shifted (had about 75k miles on it then).

At least one of the national chain transmission stores gives you the option of fluid exchange or drop the cover. Their logic is that both need to be done on a rotation of some sort.

 

[irwin]

Well here's my 2 cents.

I run a repair garage, my advice to my customers. Every 15,000 - 30,000 miles exchange the fluid (depending on vehicle use, ie :towing/ stop&go /highway only).
If you want to do as much as possible to maintain the vehicle, then every other exchange also drop the pan and change the filter. Otherwise drop the pan and replace the filter when the pan gskt leaks.

I have never found a very dirty filter in a good transmission, if the filter is full of debris the transmission is on it's way out. JMHO.

[quote : orezok]
"Overall the new method is probably better in the long run. You might want to drop the pan every 3 years or so for the filter. Newer transmission rarely clog filters or have junk in the pan. If they do, you're going to be doing a rebuild anyway, changing fluid NEVER fixed a problem transmission. "

 

[Diamondpilot]

Like the others have said the best way is to do the exchange the fluid and drop the pan. I am seeing more and more cars with drain plugs on the pan and spin on "OIL FILTER" type tranny filters. Saturn's, Ford Super Duty Trucks, Duramax with Allison trannys, and most foreign cars.

Chris

 

[Eagleview]

It is important to have the bands adjusted periodicaly depending on usage . Every two years i drop the pan , change the filter , drain the fluid from the torque convertor (via the drain plug on the convertor) and adjust the bands . (if you have an inch pound tension wrench you can do it yourself) Ive never had a transmission fail . If you allow the adjustment get out of specs you will tear up the clutches and bands . Preventitive maintainance is cheap compared to being in a strange town with a dead tranny $$$$$$$$$$.

 

[john_bud]

You can pretty much do it yourself too. Drop the pan, wipe it out good. Replace the filter (easy). Replace the pan, refill.

Now there are probably quick connects for the hard lines from the cooler. Take off the return line and run a clear hose to a bucket next to the car door. Bump the starter (don't let it run) until you have 2-3 qts of fluid out. Refill the trans. Bump some more -- refill some more. When you have clean fluid out, top the trans, replace the lines and have a cold one while you wash up.

Saves 75-100 bucks takes about 30 min total time. Not quite as good as a power flush, but close.

jb

 

[CJ4]

Good and interesting thread. I've been around career mechanics all my life and most good mechanics will tell you that really being an expert on auto transmissions are something that's somewhat a breed of it's own. There seems to be a bit of a mystery about really knowing your stuff about them. I'm curious what makes them fail and why it's so expensive these days to rebuild them??? And truely, what, if anything can be done other than the normal fluid and filter changes to prolong it's life. Maybe someone here will respond that is truely a transmission specialist so we all don't just have to continue to guess what the spirit of a auto transmission really is.....(no offense to anyone)

 

[Skyco]

FWIW my company vehicle's maintenance is administered by a large national company specializing in such. At one point we were prohibited from having a trans fluid exchange done by machine. Seems a LOT of transmission failures were seen right after doing such. I think it had more to do with the inexperience of the typical Jerky Lube grunt and maybe the machines are better/more foolproof now, they eventually again allowed such machine use.

What I do on my personal vehicles is this-
my F350> I drop and replace 4 quarts of trans fluid every engine oil change, about 8 will come out if I let it..
my Honda Pilot> I drop and replace 3 quarts (all that will come out) every engine oil change.
The Ford has a filter in the pan I swap every 50,000 or so. The Honda has no replaceable filter
Best in my opinion- is do your own trans fluid/filter changes- it isn't hard and is way cheaper. I HATE the Jerky Lube places and would NEVER take a vehicle I own to one....I see way too many violations of best practices to suit me. IE- went last week with the company car and watched the doofus lay the oil fill cap threaded side down on the dirty fan cowling..of course he wasn't gonna clean the dirt off either when he replaced it on the motor until I pointed it out He also checked the trans fluid without ever pulling the stick out I didn't know you could hire a psychic for $8 an hour....the going rate for such places here.

 

[PSDStu]

Not sure about your truck, but when I change the tranny fluid on my 97 F-250 Powerstoke I can also turn the torque converter and pull the drain plug and drain it as well.
The only real pain with my truck is that the EO4D trans pan doesn't have a drain plug, so the first time I did the change I swapped the EO4D pan for a 4R100 pan which has the drain plug.

Stu

 

[Roady]

Just a quick note about the fluid exchange method. The machine that does this takes out the old and pumps in the new fluid all in reverse. This method removes almost all debris from your filter and takes it out of the tranny. As mentioned before, dropping the pan method only replaces about 5-6 quarts of fluid. Exchange gets all of it. Even the converter fluid. I always have my mechanic add 1 gallon of Lucas to the tranny also. Makes a huge difference.

Roady

 

[orezok]

Good and interesting thread. I've been around career mechanics all my life and most good mechanics will tell you that really being an expert on auto transmissions are something that's somewhat a breed of it's own. There seems to be a bit of a mystery about really knowing your stuff about them. I'm curious what makes them fail and why it's so expensive these days to rebuild them??? And truely, what, if anything can be done other than the normal fluid and filter changes to prolong it's life. Maybe someone here will respond that is truely a transmission specialist so we all don't just have to continue to guess what the spirit of a auto transmission really is.....(no offense to anyone)

Per my previous quote, I used to own a tranny shop. The greatest cause of failure in transmissions is heat. Run a transmission for 30 minutes with overheated fluid and you can plan on a rebuild. Heat makes the "soft parts" deteriorate quickly and causes them to glaze resulting in additional slippage and more heat. Hard part failure has become a more rare event with modern metallurgy and engineering. Mis-assembly at teh factory is a greater problem.

The newer fluids are much better at preventing heat breakdown, so go with the latest fluid available. Most quicky lube's will use a low grade "generic" fluid with the one size fits all approach. It's probably NOT the manufacturers recommended fluid/additive package. Buy your own name brand fluid and change it yourself!

Rebuilds are expensive because modern transmissions are complex electro-mechanical devices. In depth knowledge of rebuilding will net a good builder over $100K a year. Also in addition to replacing soft parts at rebuild, now numerous electro mechanical parts should be replaced just based upon age.

Manufacturers put filters in to catch the "big" stuff, such as those miscellaneous spare parts that get dropped during manufacturing or pieces of friction material that break off due to hardening from high heat. Other than that, the filter serves no real purpose. If the filter has anything in it , you need a rebuild. I haven't changed the filter in my 96 Dodge PU in 7-8 years and don't plan to. It's got 175K miles and the fluid is pink and sweet smelling at every change.

Best advise I can give is keep it cool and do regular fluid changes.

 

[Skyco]

Not sure about your truck, but when I change the tranny fluid on my 97 F-250 Powerstoke I can also turn the torque converter and pull the drain plug and drain it as well.
The only real pain with my truck is that the EO4D trans pan doesn't have a drain plug, so the first time I did the change I swapped the EO4D pan for a 4R100 pan which has the drain plug.

Stu

Well I did have a torque convertor drain plug until I had Brian at BTS build me a trans...they use a whopping torque convertor that unfortunately has no drain plug. They also replaced the pan with the 4r100 pan with the plug. BTW that torque convertor was so huge compared to stock it added 3 qts to the capacity. I had my trans done by BTS as I was passing through ARK and had 120,000 miles..knew it would go someday with all the towing I do. He did find a few slightly burned clutch plates. The way Brian does them I expect to never have to go into that trans again even though I may shoot for 500,000 on the truck just for grins.

 

[orezok]

Just a quick note about the fluid exchange method. The machine that does this takes out the old and pumps in the new fluid all in reverse. This method removes almost all debris from your filter and takes it out of the tranny.

Roady

I don't believe that is possible due to the anti-drain back valve in the torque converter.

 

[Roady]

I don't believe that is possible due to the anti-drain back valve in the torque converter.

There are 2 different methods. One involves changing the fluid by using your transmission pump to move the fluid. This is done by tapping into your cooler lines. The other way involves droping the pan and connecting that way. I'm pretty sure that one is the reverse flow option. I found a couple manufactures that advertise exchangers that work that way by doing a google search.

Roady

 

[Redbug]

One interesting note. One of my friends just bought a new Toyota truck. He said the transmission is sealed for life. I looked and it does not even have a dipstick! No way to even check the fluid! I don't think I would want to do much trailer pulling if I cannot change the oil occasionally. I wonder how well they will hold up?

 

[Diamondpilot]

That is nothing new. We had a 2003 Mercury Mountaineer with the 4.6L V8 and a automatic that was sealed. I asked the Ford Garage boss about it and he said Ford and others were doing it to the "soccer mom" vehicles. He said it had a float switch that turned on when the level was low and activated the light on the dash. He said a totally sealed system was the way to go because most people over fill due to checking when not up to temp plus keeps crud out. On the Mountaineer it had 60,000 mile chance interval. I was there when they did it and it was the cleanest I have ever seen so maybe a sealed system is the way to go.

End result is you still change the fluid and instead of a dipstick there is a float switch and a dummy light. No leaks no problems so it will probably be what we are seeing more in the future.

Chris

 

[Eagleview]

Checking the fluid level is not the only use for a dipstick . I like to be able to keep an eye on the colour and smell of the fluid . I bought a different brand of new car because the first i looked at had a sealed tranny .

 

[Builder]

That is nothing new. We had a 2003 Mercury Mountaineer with the 4.6L V8 and a automatic that was sealed. I asked the Ford Garage boss about it and he said Ford and others were doing it to the "soccer mom" vehicles. He said it had a float switch that turned on when the level was low and activated the light on the dash. He said a totally sealed system was the way to go because most people over fill due to checking when not up to temp plus keeps crud out. On the Mountaineer it had 60,000 mile chance interval. I was there when they did it and it was the cleanest I have ever seen so maybe a sealed system is the way to go.

End result is you still change the fluid and instead of a dipstick there is a float switch and a dummy light. No leaks no problems so it will probably be what we are seeing more in the future.

Chris

I don't trust dummy lights. I don't think you'll find a sealed system used on allisons or CAT autos.