Charging problem

[gbirky]

OK Soundguy, so you know more about it than me. No surprise there...

All I was trying to say, is that the alternator is a simple permanent magnet type. There is always a load on the engine to turn it. The point is that the diodes without any load will provide a current which is not what I consider to be DC. That is, it is a series of bumps, so if you do a frequency analysis, there is significant power at frequencies much higher than zero. The average is positive, because the bridge rectifier creates the effect of "reflecting" or "folding" the negative part of the alternating cycle to positive. A true voltage regulator in my mind would provide a constant voltage output with a great majority of the power at a frequency of zero regardless of whether there is a load or not. I don't believe this is what the alternator and voltage regulator on my YM1110D does. One wire from the alternator goes directly to the battery, the other to the VR. The other wires on the VR go to battery and ground. I guess its possible the the VR actually does some feedback based variable regulation, but I rather doubt it.

I'll have to check it out, but I'd bet that without the battery, the voltage will be a wave form, not a constant.

By the way, I think you attached a bitmap file. My browser couldn't read it.

Greg

 

[normde2001]

Sure hate to oversimplify this thing, but if it were mine I would take the alternator and/or regulator apart and see which has the diodes and check them with a meter. (Continuity in one direction, open in the other). Should be either 3 or 6 of them.

 

[Soundguy]

"All I was trying to say, is that the alternator is a simple permanent magnet type. There is always a load on the engine to turn it. The point is that the diodes without any load will provide a current which is not what I consider to be DC. That is, it is a series of bumps,"

Bottom line.. if current flows in only one direction in that circuit.. it is dc...
It is unfiltered dc..

" so if you do a frequency analysis, there is significant power at frequencies much higher than zero. The average is positive, because the bridge rectifier creates the effect of "reflecting" or "folding" the negative part of the alternating cycle to positive. "

Frequency referes to cycles. There is no negative voltage swing in unfiltered , rectified dc. Every second, you will have the native positive wave form, then the redirected wave form.
freq is 0.

"A true voltage regulator in my mind would provide a constant voltage output with a great majority of the power at a frequency of zero regardless of whether there is a load or not. I don't believe this is what the alternator and voltage "

Note that, electrically, a regulator is not a rectifier, and even if packaged together in a block component, it is still two devices. As for a constant voltage with no load, many regulator circuits will accomplish this. In some cases, the regulator itself provides a load. A constant current circuit will do the same, as it has a built predetermined load.

"regulator on my YM1110D does. One wire from the alternator goes directly to the battery, the other to the VR. The other wires on the VR go to battery and ground. I guess its possible the the VR actually does some feedback based variable regulation, but I rather doubt it."

Depends on the age of the unit...The regulator will have a common ground reference, and a reference of the output voltage applied to the battery. Usually this wire is tied right to the charge output of the alternator, rather than run to the battery itself. Electrically, there will be little difference anyway. There will also be a reference for the field coil in an alternator that uses an external regulator. DC generators, and magnetrons will use a slightly different method.

"I'll have to check it out, but I'd bet that without the battery, the voltage will be a wave form, not a constant."

The variation is correct.. that wasn't in dispute...The voltage without a load, or a battery, will look like unfiltered rectified dc... it will have crest to 0 crest to 0
It will not be a true wave form, with no negative voltage swing. A large value capacitor will help cut emi noise on any electrical equipment you are running... an 'L' or 'PI' filter using 2 caps and a choke will kill rfi as well.


Suprising... what browser are you using? bitmaps are a fairly
common pic format. I'll attatch a jpg with this post.

Soundguy

"By the way, I think you attached a bitmap file. My browser couldn't read it."

Greg

 

[normde2001]

Whew!!!....You guys are giving me a headache...I'm outa here.

 

[bruce1966us]

It was a YM1401 to start with right?! That tractor uses a dyno (generator) and puts out AC voltage (25-30 at 1500rpm) which is converted to DC by the regulator. Here's a good one- I have used a Kohler 3 wire regulator with the dyno system on some powerpacks I have built with the 3TR72 engine and it works fine. I will look up the Kohler part number if anyone is interested. These systems are very simple in design which I think is great!

Thanks for all
Bruce

 

[bruce1966us]

A lot of the old Dodges/Chryslers had basically this same system but with higher voltage/amps.

Bruce

 

[bruce1966us]

And just how do you insert an attachment here? Sorry for all the posts!

Bruce

 

[Soundguy]

Assuming the charging system is still stock on his unit.. does it produce the ac, outsource it to a regulator, then bring it back to rectify it? His last post stated that he was told that 'the diode pack' was good.....
On the other hand, if ac voltage is making it to the battery.. that isn't good. ( But it doesn't sound like it is.... it should have been noticible by now ). If that system does have a rectifier built in with the regulator, then there should be no + battery charge output post on that unit.. his message indicated that there was. Unless the + reference was extra excitement for a field coil, in conjunction with a perm. magnet setup. I've seen a a unit set up that way before.

I hope he posts whatever the problem was, as it is getting interesting.

Soundguy

It was a YM1401 to start with right?! That tractor uses a dyno (generator) and puts out AC voltage (25-30 at 1500rpm) which is converted to DC by the regulator. Here's a good one- "I have used a Kohler 3 wire regulator with the dyno system on some powerpacks I have built with the 3TR72 engine and it works fine. I will look up the Kohler part number if anyone is interested. These systems are very simple in design which I think is great!
Thanks for all
Bruce "

 

[normde2001]

Bruce, read the FAQ about attaching photo's. Then make sure the box labeled "Review or attach a file" is checked, click continue, then click on browse to find your file/photo.

 

[gbirky]

Bruce,
I'd like to know the Kohler part number of that regulator. I can get the correct one for $60, but if there is an equivalent for less money - I could go for it.

Greg