China-made equipment...

[Renze]

What you are stating and protecting in many cases are not opinions.

then what are they ????????????

 

[sunspot]

Renze, I read recently that the US birthrate has gone up the past few years. A bit to late to pay for my old age. I値l be in my early 80's before the new kids pay (Taxes) kicks in for me.

 

[mouse]

then what are they ????????????

gotta say i think you're flogging a dead horse trying to communicate with someone as pigheaded as our longhorn mate...

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

 

[ddivinia]

gotta say i think you're flogging a dead horse trying to communicate with someone as pigheaded as our longhorn mate...

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

I'll explain myself:

Well in many cases he is not arguing opinions, but facts. He is flat wrong on many of them. In addition it is pretty much senseless to try to discuss anything with him. I told myself to not even get involved with this one. It is not just this thread but there are many others on Tractorbynet.

I guess watching the news and reading a couple history books he is an expert on America. I would have to check, but I think we have ranches in Texas larger than his whole country. There I go, picking on the little guy again. My point is that the diversity of issues, weather, economics, etc. across our country is not trivial. As usual the outsiders try to lump them all into one bucket. What might make sense for New York City might not make any sense in Paris, Texas.

Also, the comments about how Clinton left us in such good shape and Bush drove us into the ground is not a simple one at all. There is no debate about the budget, economy, etc. - that is a fact. The .com to the .bomb, then real estate, now energy speculation, the list goes on. Who would want that job anyway? Hillary sure spent a lot of money trying to get it. People that think the President is the only factor that makes these changes is not very informed. There is no way one person can fix or break that much stuff. Obama or McCain - same deal. American has issues like many other countries.

Usually it is Americans trashing America. Most of those people are not traveled and not well read. Go spend a couple hours in Zimbabwe and get back to me. I have been all over the world. American might not be the best place in the world, but isn't in last place either.

Also, I suspect most of Europeans would be speaking German right now if it was not for us pigheaded Americans.

D.

 

[Renze]

I'll explain myself:

Well in many cases he is not arguing opinions, but facts. He is flat wrong on many of them. In addition it is pretty much senseless to try to discuss anything with him. I told myself to not even get involved with this one. It is not just this thread but there are many others on Tractorbynet.

I cant remember ever having a discussion or debate with you.. So why did you not get involved, untill in the debate only some knowledgeable guys are left, of which i am glad to learn. Then you sneak up from behind and throw a hand full of pebbles ??
You just didnt earn any respect with that

Oh, and if you were referring to my very first post in this thread: I admit the China-overtaking-America-thing was purely provocative.
But i achieved my goal with it: It lead to a great debate !!

Go spend a couple hours in Zimbabwe and get back to me. I have been all over the world. American might not be the best place in the world, but isn't in last place either.

We have a friend in Zimbabwe, which we support financially, and in our prayers. I know a bit or two about their situation.
Next to that: once again: You never heard me say that America was a worse place than my little Holland....

Also, I suspect most of Europeans would be speaking German right now if it was not for us pigheaded Americans.

Once again, these useless history remarks: However, Americans arent speaking American, but speak ENGLISH, dont they ???

 

[SLOBuds]

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

There it is in a nutshell! And just to expand on this 'never would want to live there' concept - whatever anyone does, never never live in California! That place is infested with sunny beaches, fair weather, blond gals, fertile soils, and odd people.

No one would ever deliberately want to actually live there.

We've got one planet going here, regardless of a bunch of folks wanting to deny or ignore that. Our choice is either to work with those facts or to slug it out as we have in the past.

The American boastfulness is agitating to others. Most non-Americans understand this cultural attribute of ours. They politely accept it as simply another personality factor in the 'everyone is unique' category. Other non-Americans are compelled to let the American know that he doesn't have a corner on the truth. That he is pretty much like everyone else. ('Ouch!!!' says the American back!)

It's equally untenable to say that everything is good in America as it is to say that everything is bad in America. One VERY good thing about America, though, is that you really are free to express either thing. I wouldn not want to be anywhere on the plant that forbid me to complain about things that weren't right. I know those places exist. And I also know on the other hand that America is NOT the only place that allows dissent.

For me, the whole package here in America is pretty good. For me ... maybe not for others. So I'm not shopping and probably never will. Especially when you consider that I have sunny beaches, fair weather, blond gals, and fertile soil.

 

[SLOBuds]

Once again, these useless history remarks: However, Americans arent speaking American, but speak ENGLISH, dont they ???

See. Proves that if you troll long enough you'll catch a couple of fish. (Also notice that most of the school has left the area.)

It's a good question though about history. I'm thinking that I kind of agree with that. The past is full of actions where one side helped the other, and vice versa. So 'useless history' means to abandon consideration for all those things that happened before, and base today's decisions on today.

It's hard to pull off though. First of all, cultures always honor their dead. So if you lost family or tribe members in battle, the family or tribe usually doesn't want to hear that the sacrifice really, after all, was meaningless and unimportant.

Second of all, people who negotiate for today always base their trade on future prospects as well as prior actions. Like 'please buy stuff from me because I helped keep your continent free.' Negotiators love to say things like that!

But if we can manage to toss out and forget our dead warriors and previous favors, then we can just get down to the 'what can you do for me today' conversation. Holland doesn't really look like it can do much of anything for America, so my vote would be for us to sever ties and let America go after more profitable clients.

 

[Builder]

Good point !! thats exactly why USA companies need to outsource to China for example, to stay in the race !!

Thanks for looking out for us.

Tell us what it's like living in a 3rd world country like Holland? Are you paying 70% in taxes and getting free education, fuel, insurance.....clothes....

I hear the Dutch had a lot of money & power about 300 years ago. I lurned that frum mi histery buks and watchin the histery channul. j/k

What happened? Socialism take you guys down the drain?

Don't get mad renze, just trying to be "provocative" as you call it.

 

[bontai_Joe]

Read a few posts back, and you'll read that i admitted that without hesitation:
However we dont live in the 40's and 50's anymore.

But lets dig deeper: If there werent European explorers (British, Spanish, Dutch and French) on the continent of America, still native americans would be hunting buffalo's along your continent !!

Do we, Europeans, ever look down on you because WE established modern civilisation, the basis for the current USA ??
No, because what happened that long ago, has no influence on the current global politics and economy...
Despite that, the USA is respected, and in WW2 they returned the favour helping us out against the Germans, and after that, to help us rebuild our world with the Marshall plan !

I guess you just remember what suits you...

I seem to remember that most Europeans that came to North America were escaping from religious and economic oppression in Europe, so I don't understand what thanks we would owe European countries (read ruling entities) for our creation. We kicked out a European king's government to establish our own. So I guess a thank you might be "Thanks for running your countries so badly between 1500 to 1960 that my ancestors felt the need to leave, rather than live there any more."? I always thought of the United States as a nation created by folks that no one else wanted, and by folks that were extremely unhappy with their lives and were brave enough and adventurous enough to leave their homelands and try for something better. I've been to foreign countries where people live in dirt floor huts and hope they get food for today. I saw MANY MANY people lined up in front of the US Embassy with the dream of getting to go to the US..... the lines are not as long at the other embassies, although Europe has taken in a lot of folks the past 20 years or so. So I'd say the US is still the most popular place to move to for most people in less fortunate countries. Churchill said something like "Democracy is the worst form of government on earth, except for all the others".

This has been an interesting thread. I have learned about truck technology, and read some interesting viewpoints on global economies. My shopping bias is to try to buy US produced good when possible, followed by goods produced in democratically run countries, and I try to avoid buying anything at all from dictatorships, so there are no Vietnamese sneakers in my house. But with the HUGE amount of Chinese goods flooding the American market, it's close to impossible to avoid buying Chinese goods. I'm not happy about that, but I do what I can.

 

[Renze]

See. Proves that if you troll long enough you'll catch a couple of fish. (Also notice that most of the school has left the area.)

It's a good question though about history. I'm thinking that I kind of agree with that. The past is full of actions where one side helped the other, and vice versa. So 'useless history' means to abandon consideration for all those things that happened before, and base today's decisions on today.

It's hard to pull off though. First of all, cultures always honor their dead. So if you lost family or tribe members in battle, the family or tribe usually doesn't want to hear that the sacrifice really, after all, was meaningless and unimportant.

Second of all, people who negotiate for today always base their trade on future prospects as well as prior actions. Like 'please buy stuff from me because I helped keep your continent free.' Negotiators love to say things like that!

But if we can manage to toss out and forget our dead warriors and previous favors, then we can just get down to the 'what can you do for me today' conversation. Holland doesn't really look like it can do much of anything for America, so my vote would be for us to sever ties and let America go after more profitable clients.

Hmm you're taking it to the deeper extension, not just the "brags of the day"
My comment had the only purpose to "return the favour" at the same level as the "y'all be speaking German now" remark.

For the rest, i agree with what you said: I am really interested in history, and judge the situations in my daily life, based on lessons from the past.

I didnt say that the Allied efforts in WW2 were meaningless: i just say that Americans shouldnt brag about it, 60 years later. Europeans dont brag about the past either...