China-made equipment...

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   / China-made equipment... #61  
bontai_Joe said:
I seem to remember that most Europeans that came to North America were escaping from religious and economic oppression in Europe, so I don't understand what thanks we would owe European countries (read ruling entities) for our creation.

Thats true: However the Netherlands had a German prince that freed us from the Spanish religious oppression... In our national anthem, there is mention of this "German blood"....


bontai_Joe said:
We kicked out a European king's government to establish our own. So I guess a thank you might be "Thanks for running your countries so badly between 1500 to 1960 that my ancestors felt the need to leave, rather than live there any more."? I always thought of the United States as a nation created by folks that no one else wanted, and by folks that were extremely unhappy with their lives and were brave enough and adventurous enough to leave their homelands and try for something better.

I have relatives in Canada. I know of quite a few occasions that these (my ancestors that emigrated) were "funny" people: behaviour that would now be described as "ADHD", or just extremely stubbard people that needed the freedom. I know them personally, and i admit that i have been thinking of emigrating for the same reasons :p It's ok by me, to say that i wasnt brave and adventurous enough ;)


bontai_Joe said:
Churchill said something like "Democracy is the worst form of government on earth, except for all the others".

dont know who said it, but i recall "democracy is just the dictature of the majority" ;)
However mankind hasnt found a better system yet... Thats why most "free" countries have a fundamental law to protect the minorities in their basic rights :)[/QUOTE]

bontai_Joe said:
This has been an interesting thread. I have learned about truck technology, and read some interesting viewpoints on global economies. My shopping bias is to try to buy US produced good when possible, followed by goods produced in democratically run countries, and I try to avoid buying anything at all from dictatorships, so there are no Vietnamese sneakers in my house. But with the HUGE amount of Chinese goods flooding the American market, it's close to impossible to avoid buying Chinese goods. I'm not happy about that, but I do what I can.

Its your right to shop biased ;) I must admit i do the same, and agree that we (the world) can no longer avoid Chinese goods. But lets not forget that many parts from cars we buy, are already made in Asia. The "buying 100% american goods" is a misconception: Anno 2008 its nearly impossible.
And for us, the Dutch, its the same thing: Our famous Philips bulb lights are outsourced to Asia, as well as the plasma screens. Philips just had to do something to stay competitive against the Jap and Korean brands.
 
   / China-made equipment... #62  
Builder said:
Tell us what it's like living in a 3rd world country like Holland? Are you paying 70% in taxes and getting free education, fuel, insurance.....clothes....:confused:

No, if i recall properly, we pay roughly 33% income tax to support our health care, and 19% VAT. (off course the higher incomes pay more)

In Scandinavia, they pay a lot more tax than us, and have a lot more social security... Cant tell from here, if its good or bad... More bureaucracy probably means its bad... In Holland, they are privatising the public healthcare to make it more cost effective...

And our fuel isnt free.... we pay roughly 1.50 euro for a liter of diesel. 1.75 for gas...

Builder said:
What happened? Socialism take you guys down the drain?

I didnt think so... aftr 8 years of left government lead by Wim Kok, with his so-called "poldermodel" which they proudly tried to "export" to the rest of the world, but only worked in good times) our country had a "right" government that took measures before the recession struck... and we're doing better than the rest of Europe. ;)

Builder said:
Don't get mad renze, just trying to be "provocative" as you call it. ;)
Good, Good !! nice to have you back in the game ! :) ;)
 
   / China-made equipment... #63  
Renze said:
No, if i recall properly, we pay roughly 33% income tax to support our health care, and 19% VAT. (off course the higher incomes pay more)

And our fuel isnt free.... we pay roughly 1.50 euro for a liter of diesel. 1.75 for gas...



I didnt think so... aftr 8 years of left, our country had a "right" government that took measures before the recession struck... and we're doing better than the rest of Europe. ;)


Good, Good !! nice to have you back in the game ! :) ;)

I never left. Well actually, I left for the Bahamas for a week for a time share on Paradise Island. :)

Funny, the Bahamians I talked to all deeply trust the Americans and the contractors they hire from America to build bridges, resorts, roads and other large infrastructure. Lots of CAT equipment down there, and come to think of it, their currency follows the American dollar, they are on the English system of measures (not metric) and they seem to be doing very well for a 3rd world country not unlike yours.

Kind of flies in the face of all your "America can't do anything right" sentiments, huh? :D
 
   / China-made equipment... #64  
Renze said:
Its your right to shop biased ;) I must admit i do the same, and agree that we (the world) can no longer avoid Chinese goods. But lets not forget that many parts from cars we buy, are already made in Asia. The "buying 100% american goods" is a misconception: Anno 2008 its nearly impossible.
And for us, the Dutch, its the same thing: Our famous Philips bulb lights are outsourced to Asia, as well as the plasma screens. Philips just had to do something to stay competitive against the Jap and Korean brands.

Definitely. And you have a one-up on the Americans from that perspective. The perspective that buying 'in-country' Holland would have been impossible from day 1. So you never had the expectation. Whereas in America it was more of a closed system previously such that everything COULD be produced and consumed here. It was never seen as a particularly good thing to do, or as part of a consumption bias. It was just seen as the way we got to live our lives.

I have close friends who work at the Aerospace company that was awarded the TANKER $100 billion contract, which was subsequently protested - and led to highly vocal public comment. The competition is between Boeing and Northrop Grumman. Boeing's solution was one of their planes. Northrop Grumman's solution was based on a plane from EADS, France.

Turns out that while Northrop Grumman's solution is 65% foreign-sourced, Boeing's solution is 50% foreign-sourced. And both solutions end up bringing thousands of jobs to the States. Etc.

After talking this over with my buddy for long long periods of time, my final take is that all us Americans could do ourselves a huge favor by directly asking the question: do we want this globalization stuff, or not? Our terrific democracy is definitely capable of bringing that question to the table. It would be easy to give America's armed services the directive that all product be designed, fabricated and assembled onshore. Or even some measured-compromise type of arrangement, such as giving extremely high award points based on the relative amount of onshore build.

Now the problem with this hit-it-direct approach is that Americans are conflicted themselves. The same people who want to buy onshore are the people who shop at Walmart. And in addition to this fundamental conflict, Americans have just become lazy as result of all this cheap product. Meaning that we basically don't know how to engineer this stuff any more, and we basically don't want to build it with our own hands.

Some people would argue that this last problem will fix itself. We just go ahead and pay a bunch of money to have our stuff engineered, then built. Then all those objects are sold at high price, to be consumed by people who make all those big wages.

It's just so unreasonable to think that Americans would ever upend its culture that much. To conceive that free markets as we know them would be constrained only to American production. That American business itself would give up access to foreign customers, assuming that foreign countries would allow American imports since the American trade border is closed.

At the end of this complicated story it's still clear to me that we now live in one planet and need to figure out the new rules, or decide to slug it out as most of history before.
 
   / China-made equipment... #65  
SLOBuds said:
Americans have just become lazy as result of all this cheap product. Meaning that we basically don't know how to engineer this stuff any more,

I disagree with that. We still lead the world in engineering and R&D. We do still know how to engineer leading edge technology. The examples are all around us.

and we basically don't want to build it with our own hands.

I agree with that concept to some degree, but I don't think it's the worker's fault. There are still plenty of people in this country that want to use their hands to build things. I think it's the governments fault for succumbing to pressure from enviromentalists, unions, etc. that have made it too expensive to produce much of anything here anymore.

I don't blame the American worker for lack of global competitiveness, I blame the enviroment he is asked to work in.
 
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