Chinese clone engines, the good bad and the ugly

[SPIKER]

For PRC, zero pollution standards are a major competive advantage.

Part of the un-level playing field that guaranteed they would take over most manufacturing sectors.

Rgds, D.

I agree when the EPA can basically write their own paycheck by going after any industry they want without Congressional approval then they have effectively become a dictatorship within the USA. Look what they are attempting to do to the wood stove manufactures, most of which are small places making couple hundred stoves a month. The costs to make them EPA compliant & tests to prove it is compliant & maintain those compliance are upwards of 100K per model of stove. Each model must be tested and meet these stringent requirement. Mind you the Wood Stoves are just one of the latest industries to be threatened to be wiped out by costly and unnecessary regulations. Looking around and checking for pollution out of even all of the stoves made is hard to find stats but that pollution is extremely miniscule.

China will eventually start losing their best and brightest for a better place to live if they do not do something about their environmental issues. Average wages will increase, there will be better balance between counties than there is now. They have a lot of people so they will remain a powerhouse, but not to the extent they might be thought to be destined to be today.

That has been happening for a while because of the competition for jobs over there most of the under 30 crowd have high degrees & few good paying jobs. I work with a large number of good professional people over last few years. Now I have a Masters degree person working with him (27 yrs old) but is the typical book smart type who can't tie his own shoes. :/ He so far has been the exception to intelligent hard working people I have been around.

m

 

[3930dave]

I agree when the EPA can basically write their own paycheck by going after any industry they want without Congressional approval then they have effectively become a dictatorship within the USA. Look what they are attempting to do to the wood stove manufactures, most of which are small places making couple hundred stoves a month. The costs to make them EPA compliant & tests to prove it is compliant & maintain those compliance are upwards of 100K per model of stove. Each model must be tested and meet these stringent requirement. Mind you the Wood Stoves are just one of the latest industries to be threatened to be wiped out by costly and unnecessary regulations. Looking around and checking for pollution out of even all of the stoves made is hard to find stats but that pollution is extremely miniscule.

m

Pretty much any manufacturing sector, over time, becomes very competitive.

Forget about wages, energy, construction, taxes and any other input costs - just for a minute - better yet, let's pretend they all are equal, both sides of the globe.

Even then, cost-wise, the country with zero pollution regs is going to win the business battle. Obviously, losing out in other areas.

Plenty of bright people here (govt and industry) knew exactly what was going to happen to our manufacturing base when this shift started, 40+ years ago - just based on allowing cheap goods into the country that were manufactured in countries with zero pollution regs.

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Since we seldom wear out a small engine around our place as long as they start and run fine is my main concern. I still think metal quality can be lacking in low end China goods but is it an issue in $100 engine? At this point I think not.

 

[Aussiebushman]

Gale - your comments are accurate enough, but I personally take exception to anything promoting the "throwaway society" If you lived in the bush, as I do, the failure of a $100 item can be just as serious as the failure of a $1000 item if it affects power, water supply, fire-fighting, removal of fallen branches etc etc.

Many of us on this forum build our own gear, not just as a hobby, or because we can, but because we want the longevity and reliability we can build into the item without worrying about premature failure. That said, if that item needs an engine to drive it, the choices become very limited due to even the "best" brands now being made in China. As stated by others right through this thread,, the quality of Chinese machinery is dubious at best, non-existent at worst.

To be fair, some of the Chinese tools are fair, mainly when they do not involve engines but they are invariably copies of the original and the problem is that materials are inferior, shortcuts are taken, or the component angles, fixings are wrong, due to the copiers not understanding or caring about the design issues. An example of this is a farm (hi-lift) jack where a minor design fault in the locking mechanism will turn a useful tool into a potential deathtrap. I had to rebuild mine to overcome what was the simplest fault - too shallow a notch and a release arm mounted at the wrong angle that pulled the notched plate away from the lock pin.

So - you might be happy to throw away such an item and just replace it. Tough luck if you happen to be trapped under the load when it fails!

 

[joeu235]

There's no such thing as "Made in ..." anymore.

I work for a very high tech manufacturing company. Head quarters are in the Netherlands, engineering in California & India, purchasing in Texas and China, most machining occurs in Singapore, many parts are shipped from Singapore to California or Japan for specialty processing and then back to Singapore, product assembly and testing in Texas and ******. What is the country of origin for our products?

 

[PILOON]

There's no such thing as "Made in ..." anymore.

I work for a very high tech manufacturing company. Head quarters are in the Netherlands, engineering in California & India, purchasing in Texas and China, most machining occurs in Singapore, many parts are shipped from Singapore to California or Japan for specialty processing and then back to Singapore, product assembly and testing in Texas and ******. What is the country of origin for our products?

Hienz 57?

According to legal definitions, USA- if 50% of cost is US and that includes taxes, transportation and profits.
So since often shipping is a major portion of cost the (shipping) is best to be COD.

 

[muddstopper]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/w...ssionals-leave-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Gale - your comments are accurate enough, but I personally take exception to anything promoting the "throwaway society" If you lived in the bush, as I do, the failure of a $100 item can be just as serious as the failure of a $1000 item if it affects power, water supply, fire-fighting, removal of fallen branches etc etc.

Many of us on this forum build our own gear, not just as a hobby, or because we can, but because we want the longevity and reliability we can build into the item without worrying about premature failure. That said, if that item needs an engine to drive it, the choices become very limited due to even the "best" brands now being made in China. As stated by others right through this thread,, the quality of Chinese machinery is dubious at best, non-existent at worst.

To be fair, some of the Chinese tools are fair, mainly when they do not involve engines but they are invariably copies of the original and the problem is that materials are inferior, shortcuts are taken, or the component angles, fixings are wrong, due to the copiers not understanding or caring about the design issues. An example of this is a farm (hi-lift) jack where a minor design fault in the locking mechanism will turn a useful tool into a potential deathtrap. I had to rebuild mine to overcome what was the simplest fault - too shallow a notch and a release arm mounted at the wrong angle that pulled the notched plate away from the lock pin.

So - you might be happy to throw away such an item and just replace it. Tough luck if you happen to be trapped under the load when it fails!

Good point for sure. I had a flat on the car a week ago and the seal broke so my 12 volt air compressor would not help. After we finally got the spare on then aired it up it was about 20 minutes before they closed. The tires were 60-75% worn but I left with four new ones for the same reason you gave for buying quality engines. There are things that break and the cost to replace may be a small part of the total damages caused by the failure. A flat tire on an interstate can lead to death and we put this car on 2000-3000 mile trips every year. Driving in snow tonight was less stressful than had the old set still been on the car.

 

[3930dave]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/w...ssionals-leave-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Education/skills/wealth makes moving easier, so that trend is somewhat natural; esp. given the pollution levels in China today.

Being a Commonwealth country, there was an influx of immigrants to Canada in the late 80's from Hong Kong.

Once HK stabilized post handover, some of the men (professional or business class) went back, while keeping their residence here. In the flat-tax, pro-business evironment of HK they could (legally) make more money in a couple of years than they would have working the rest of their life in Canada.

Canadians, but esp. our govt, could learn from that dynamic.

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/w...ssionals-leave-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Thanks for the link.

 

[TomSeller]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/asia/wary-of-future-many-professionals-leave-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Very good link. I have been saying the tide will turn against the Chinese to some extent as the younger generations want and deserve a better life. No surprise to me, that there will be some Long term adjustments to what seems to be completely going the way of China now.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

The USA has made lot of missteps in our import/exporting results but we have done a great job of exporting our views on all types of freedoms. I was taken back at the reason one young lady gave for moving to AU. When we go to HF and buy these cheap Honda knockoffs we are doing more good than we may realize.

 

[Seriousnz]

I know this is an old thread now, but could not resist a comment. I live in New Zealand and make conversion kits to put Honda engines on Gravely L series 2 wheel tractors. Its not my day job and more a hobby but I have been doing it for 20 years on and off. 90% of the kits go to the US, mostly to repeat customers (one has 7 now). I don't advertise but do get consistent inquiries. Most of the new enquirers are asking me to recommend Chinese clones. I tell them to ask at the local hire center what their experience is and go with that. I tell them if they do that, they can keep an eye out on craigs list or ebay for a good used 11 or 13hp Honda but the clone will get them started. Now with the Chinese pollution, in 1900 London was the most polluted city on earth, with many thousands dieing every year from lung disease, they cleaned it up. I remember my first visit to LA in in 1972 and seeing the air pollution tidemarks on the buildings, they cleaned it up. In my day job in travel to Asia a lot and can tell you the rapidly rising standard and cost of living in China is causing Chinese companies to outsource to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. In the end, as another poster has pointed out, you will have your Chinese engines assembled, if not made, in Mexico or Guatemala to save on transport costs.

 

[buickanddeere]

Of the Chinese Clones. The Champion brand has been tested and monitored along with the others. The Champion appears to be better than a real Honda.

 

[TomSeller]

I know this is an old thread now, but could not resist a comment. I live in New Zealand and make conversion kits to put Honda engines on Gravely L series 2 wheel tractors. Its not my day job and more a hobby but I have been doing it for 20 years on and off. 90% of the kits go to the US, mostly to repeat customers (one has 7 now). I don't advertise but do get consistent inquiries. Most of the new enquirers are asking me to recommend Chinese clones. I tell them to ask at the local hire center what their experience is and go with that. I tell them if they do that, they can keep an eye out on craigs list or ebay for a good used 11 or 13hp Honda but the clone will get them started. Now with the Chinese pollution, in 1900 London was the most polluted city on earth, with many thousands dieing every year from lung disease, they cleaned it up. I remember my first visit to LA in in 1972 and seeing the air pollution tidemarks on the buildings, they cleaned it up. In my day job in travel to Asia a lot and can tell you the rapidly rising standard and cost of living in China is causing Chinese companies to outsource to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. In the end, as another poster has pointed out, you will have your Chinese engines assembled, if not made, in Mexico or Guatemala to save on transport costs.

Very informative first post. Welcome.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Yes thanks for the detailed posting on Honda clones.

 

[Artisan]

I got a Chinise 13 HP Honda clone on our pressure washer and have owned it for five years with zero issues. Starts first pull every time.

Long time no see Keymosabee...
I need parts for my 13 HP Cloan.

I do have the poop on it;

CHINA XINGYUE GROUP
6CXGS 3892GA EM

13 HP Motor Group (That is what it says on the decal on the recoil starter rope cover)

I have a CARROLL STREAM MOTOR COMPANY 13HP Honda Cloan Engine. It is a;
6CXGS 3892GA EM CHINA XINGYUE GROUP

I need;

Carburetor and Gaskets
Air Filter w/ foam cover.
In-line fuel filter and clamps.
Spark Plug

BRAD

 

[Howard Roark]

Good morning, Folks!
Found you while looking for a replacement engine for my riding mower.
It's an older John Deere, with the Kohler Command 13 engine.
Is there a direct replacement clone that will bolt right in?
I'm a pretty fair parts changer, less fair mechanic!:laughing:
Was kind of surprised that a new Kohler engine cost the same
as a new (home depot) riding mower! And the new mowers seem to
have gears/trans. issues according to reviews.
Seeing as this machine is tried/true for mowing about 1 acre property
I think I'd like to keep it running.
Any help is certainly appreciated!

 

[GLyford]

I have not seen a clone riding engine yet (though they may be out there).

So far, I have had pretty good luck buying one of the "surplus" engines off of one of the "small engine warehouse" places (they are usually new, but because they are not being sold by an authorized dealer, and the warranty date from date of manufacturer is also usually past, they are usually not covered by the manufacturer...the websites may offer a DOA return policy).

The other thing I have done with mixed success is simply buying a whole used mower off of a local small engine repair guy, then swapping the engine over and raiding the rest for parts. I can often find them for $200 or so, about the same as you'd pay for a used engine. On the advice of my local guy, I have been avoiding the Kohler stuff...he has had a string of trouble with the new mowers he sells that came with them installed, never mind used.

 

[Howard Roark]

Thank You GLyford!
Those are some good ideas, I'll see what I can find.