Chinese yes or Chinese no way??

[To20Chris]

Hopefully more people will find out about TBN and be able to get the tractor they need the first time out! I always cringe when I read a post where someone bought the wrong size tractor and wants to trade after a year or so - I know they are going to get hammered, regardless of brand.

Resale is an important issue, and not all of the brands out there now are going to make it. If you get stuck with one that doesn't your resale value is going to be real bad for a long time. How important resale is will vary for each person, and how each brand does in the long term will be different.

It's all a matter of how you look at risk. I tend to look at how the company is set up when geussing about their long term viability. Frankly, there are a couple that I just don't get! The almost complete separation between manufacturers and the marketers (brand) with some Chinese tractors scares me a lot. It's one thing to have a joint agreement (i.e. NH/Shibura), it's another to just buy shipments and that's the last the mfg has to do with it. It seems like some of them are starting to change that. Mahindra markets tractors from others with both well known (Mitsubishi) and unknown manufacturers with their own name, which no one has ever heard of. They seem to be good tractors, but I'm wondering how that stratagy is going to work. Conversely, if enough people recognize that a previously big-time brand name is nothing more than that, it's value will become worthless. There is one in particular that seems to be going that way - will they survive?

Anyway, it pays to look a little deeper than just the tractor itself, or the name, when evaluating how big a risk you're taking.

 

[DavesTractor]

Mahindra is on track to sell in the neighborhood of 100,000 tractors worldwide this year, 10,000 of them in the USA. While those numbers are not impressive against the big 3 in the USA, they are substantial in the world market and coming on strong for the USA. I do not know the numbers for Kioti, but I expect they are strong as well. I think we will see good resale for these brands as they gain market share.

Here on my lot, I can sell a used Mahindra up against a used JD with little difference in price on comparable models. I also know that in many areas this is not true, so I am not arguing with those that feel otherwise.

Of course the question was Chinese or not, and I have not answered that. Used Chinese tractors sell cheap around here and most dealers are very ruluctant to take them in trade, but they were cheap to start with, so the loss might not be all the great.

 

[KiotiJohn]

Can't we use the Kubota story as a good example of how things change with regard to resale value? How easy it seems for people to forget that Kubota was, not that long ago, the new kid on the block, and I'm sure people said, "There won't be any resale value with that tractor." Yes, things change and sometimes one must sell sooner than later, but if one is buying based on resale value, you probably need to rent and forget owning a tractor.
As for Chinese or not, if you're not a mechanic, and can't do the simplest of things such as change out a temperature guage or change filters, oil and hydro fluid, don't buy Chinese. Many post have mentioned that there are a few electrical problems in the beginning, guages that can be replaced with more reliable equipment etc. If one is willing and able to make these changes, these Chinese tractors can be a good value. John

 

[SPIKER]

I saw YES: I own a 2+ yr old JINMA a 284; runs like a top did about 4 acres of mowing today with it... starts up almost instantly when it is obove 50 degrees takes 15 sec of glow plug below 50 above 30 and starts right up. below 30 I use a mix of kero and diesle and 20~30 sec on the glow plug and she fires right up.

todate I had a few minor problems,

one oil press gauge quit, I replaced it with a dirrect reading that I like better anyway. cost 9.99 for a odd lots 3 gauge kit. I still have the other 2.

2. blew the bypass hose for the awter system when I was box bladeing and caught a 36''x24"x4' deep concrete pier (sudden jolt raised front end about 3' before I got clutch stabbed in and with the FEL on and some dirt in it she dropped like a rock.) (running 5+ MPH) the resulting jolt ended the hoses life but it was rotted from anti freeze use, glycohol and the cheap hose fault. repolacement free as I had a take off from my womans t-bird from the week before which was in like new condition.)
also leave FEL on 24/7 and first 100 hrs it was used mostly as a bull dozer. land clearing with 22./5 acres 12 of which are woods 5 ravine and rest was lawn and or wild rose bushes. I have lots of scratches form dropping FEL and driving through the middle of 30 dia rose bushes!) did that on first day I had it. wonder how many BIG3 owners would drive their brand new tractor through a 15' high by 30 across rose bush!?!?!? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
anyhow I adjusted the clutch at 150 hrs, pretty easy task. and done with FEL still attached but the FEL mount removed on one side while I supported the FEL with a floor jack.

they do have some flaws mostly with the hydraulics setup. but mechanically it is very easy to fix.

RESALE: that is a load that is used all the time. not a lot of them being re-sold but when they are they are selling with typical % loss as anything new or even LESS in many cases. one guy about 2 months back sold his JINMA with Koyker fel for 9500.00 hell you can buy them NEW for that! so maybe he got a sucker but he wanted what he felt it was worth. and he got it.... Most of us BUY them because we need a tractor not to re-sell... I will sell mine but not untill I buy a 2nd JINMA! and maybe not then. sure there are a few of them that have had problems with bad tractors, and every now and again that happens usually a good dealer will make good on them. farmpro has been doing good work with parts and such. same with nortrac. both BIG jinma dealers, and probably sold more tractors in the last 5 years in the CUT market than any of us realize. also JINMA makes more tractors world wide than JD does. in the under 30 hp range. many goes to south america or europe. they are made for ground engaugement more over mowing but I still MOW with mine all day long and I have R1s on mine. It does leave a few marks but I can live with that. I could opt for Turfs but I want the traction for hard work...


now that you have heard form at least ONE user of china made tractor... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Mark M

 

[Henro]

My wife is Japanese and we have a Japanese satelite channel...

She told me there was a documentary on Komatsu heavy equopment one evening and then went to bed... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I watched it and while I couldn't understand 100%, I found it interesting how they had a lot of trouble replicating the reliability of the CAT heavy equipment...

If I remember right, they bought a CAT bulldozer and copied it part for part...

...and part broke and the engine overheated and this and that.

But they learned...and they improved and today they are pretty good.

And so the "off brands" will be too. Today it is not really rocket science, just practical application of proven techinques.

Still it takes time.

In the furture the big three will be the big four and so on...

So the question really is right now do you want to deal with the up and coming new "big X" member that has not quite made it yet?

And the answer is " it depend on your as an individual..."

Me, well I want a proven product that will work for me hour after hour...

We all have different needs and desires. Don't be afraid of the off brands if you are not afraid of getting your hands greasy and making things right again at an affordable price.

I was just talking to my daughter and saying in another year the power train warrenty on my tractor will be up. Maybe I should think about buying another new one. Why would I say that? Only because a "big three" tractor if it needs repaired is going to cost as much as the off brand complete tracdtor itself, if the repair is a major one.

So I think the answer to the questions is another question...

Do you want grease on your hands or no grease... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Henro, while I basically agree with what you said, it does not include the "marketing" factor. Not all the off brands will become major players because of the company structure.

Take a look at India's Mahindra and Korea's Kioti. Both are minor brands but both operate in a way that will likely insure some level of maketshare growth. Both build the tractors, import them, distribute them, warehouse parts, and stand behind them with a warrenty.

Then take a look at Jinma. They build the units and then sell them to whoever has the cash to buy them. The buyer may or may not offer a warrenty. The consumer is buying a tractor that has no company standing behind it in terms of distribution, parts, etc. The parts are imported the same way the tractors are, by disinterested parties with a profit motive but no real vested interest.

Some brands do fade away. Typically the brands that fade are the brands without marketing support. This is not limited to tractor, it is pervasive in all industries and market segments. I doubt that Jinma will fade away, but I would much sooner buy stock in Kioti or M&M than in Jinma because I believe those brands would provide a greater return, and a more secure investment over the long haul.

 

[Poncho]

shamban...... you asked the proverbial question which results in rabbits being chased. This thread went from a general question about the quality of lesser known/supported tractors compared side by side to the Big 3.... to basically a lot of education about resale value. Yes, sometimes resale value is an indication of the quality.. and as someone pointed out, you can pay for that on the front end. I've been researching the market for about a year and have been monitoring this website for about the same and have come to the conclusion that there are excellent tractors out there that aren't from the Big 3. The best advice thats consistent from members on this site is that of support from a local reputable full level dealership. I've looked very heavily at Mahindras because there is 3 large dealerships with 1 hour. I've also got 3 NH, 3 JD, 4 MF, and 2 CAT dealerships within that same 1 hour.... so I basically can't go wrong. I would love to look at the Kioti but don't have a local dealership. The best advice I can give you is to absorb the info from this site, keep what you feel is important and get out there and kick some tires at the dealerships. You may decide to buy a used tractor to learn more about their operation and it's applicability to your needs, and then in the future trade it in... which is where this thread wound up going without really saying it. Good luck!!

 

[Woodbeef]

Ahhhh.......Bob I think you'll find that CNH had an assembly plant for CUTs in the US before Deere did.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Woodbeef, I'm sorry I don't understand your comment?

I know that CNH is an international brand, built by parts from pretty much everywhere. Basic assembly in the USA on some of the CUTs. I've pointed out numerous times that I don't even consider CNH to be an American brand (but not in this thead).

What did is miss? Or what did I mis-state? I'm confused.

 

[Woodbeef]

Hey Bob,

I was replying to your infrence that the NH and CIH CUTs came from Japan. True parts do just like the green ones,also like them they are assembled in GA from parts sourced world-wide. The point I was making is that CNH's assembly plant in GA was up and running before Deere's was.