CK20 serviced at Upper Valley Swansea, NH no glow starting fixed and more

[Dmace]

What I meant by holding the glow plugs longer was when you were quickly flipping the switch back and forth saying there is no change. At about 55 seconds, when your flipping the switch saying "Glow on, glow off, doesn't matter". It's not going to like that. The glow plug will make no difference when turned on for a split second.

 

[malk315]

I see what your saying, however towards the end of that same video I do the same thing and it does have an immediate effect -- as soon as the yellow light lights up there is an obvious change in the sound of the engine (probably slight RPM change) and it is instant. Perhaps you can't hear it in the video.

In the first video I do the same thing when it's cold after crank -- I hold it on for a few seconds, let it off and engine get much rougher, put it back on and again instantly as soon as the yellow light is on the engine is running smoother. This was to just to demonstrate on older CK20's the user can control the glow on demand.

I do understand that putting it on and off very briefly isn't going to help in the start mission (you should just hold it on) -- my point is that even though I'm putting on briefly you can perceive a difference and my purpose of doing that is to confirm the glow plug relay and key switch are good. If you try it on your machine when it's all warm -- pulse the glow plugs for 1/2 second -- if your glow circuit is working, you will notice the engine changing in some way during that brief pulse. If the relay or keyswitch is bad and thus glowplugs are doing nothing you won't even get any perception of the engine changing at all... It's a very quick and dirty glow circuit check and that's what I'm trying to share here with guys who have machines like mine and yours.

I will admit it's a primitive check -- I'm going to take Canuck's advice and get out the meter and start checking for voltage at the rail and measure the resistance of the plugs -- then probably just tackle this myself. Doesn't seem like too big a deal.

I hope we're on the same page now.

See ya and please don't take offense! Trying to keep the boards here productive.

Sorry for the long winded posts... that's me!

 

[malk315]

Canuck-

I just watched your video -- yours is doing the same exact thing. Since it was 40 degrees that day your 3rd cylinder seems to work itself out a bit faster, but it does that identical "burst" of RPMs the more and more it fires until firing on all cylinders and the smoke you are making there looks the same -- it's very consistent with what mine is doing.

I'll try and get some time in the garage this weekend with the right tools, copy of the service manual, and let everyone know the results.

I'm not going to try and make the dealer come all the way down here if it's fairly easy to identify and change a spent or mostly spent glow plug.

Thanks -- your reply is exactly what I needed.

 

[4bangdan]

I see what your saying, however towards the end of that same video I do the same thing and it does have an immediate effect -- as soon as the yellow light lights up there is an obvious change in the sound of the engine (probably slight RPM change) and it is instant. Perhaps you can't hear it in the video.

In the first video I do the same thing when it's cold after crank -- I hold it on for a few seconds, let it off and engine get much rougher, put it back on and again instantly as soon as the yellow light is on the engine is running smoother. This was to just to demonstrate on older CK20's the user can control the glow on demand.

I do understand that putting it on and off very briefly isn't going to help in the start mission (you should just hold it on) -- my point is that even though I'm putting on briefly you can perceive a difference and my purpose of doing that is to confirm the glow plug relay and key switch are good. If you try it on your machine when it's all warm -- pulse the glow plugs for 1/2 second -- if your glow circuit is working, you will notice the engine changing in some way during that brief pulse. If the relay or keyswitch is bad and thus glowplugs are doing nothing you won't even get any perception of the engine changing at all... It's a very quick and dirty glow circuit check and that's what I'm trying to share here with guys who have machines like mine and yours.

I will admit it's a primitive check -- I'm going to take Canuck's advice and get out the meter and start checking for voltage at the rail and measure the resistance of the plugs -- then probably just tackle this myself. Doesn't seem like too big a deal.

I hope we're on the same page now.

See ya and please don't take offense! Trying to keep the boards here productive.

Sorry for the long winded posts... that's me!

i think the change in sound the engine is making when you turn the glow plugs on and off is the altenator working to cover the high amperage load that working glow plugs create. i think the best thing to check is the resistance value of each glow plug. if they all match, your ok. if one is off, change it. good luck.

 

[4bangdan]

i always set my throttle to 1500 rpms before shut down. This works best for me during very cold starts.

 

[bigken]

thought it was strange to clean glow plugs, never heard of such a thing, they turn red if they are working, and it takes longer to take them out then to replace

 

[malk315]

Hey 4bangdan-

You have a good point on the load of the glow plugs making the alternator work harder. That I didn't think of. Given the purpose of that test is to see if the key switch and relay are actually activating the plugs at all -- then hearing the load on the alternator still confirms relay / key switch function. If you activate glow and don't get the "load" sound (no change in engine sound) then you know it might be a bad relay / key switch.

I ordered a glow plug from Upper Valley today they shipped to me. If it gets here by Saturday I'll work on it most likely on Sunday. This way if I find at least one questionable plug I've got one to install -- if not I've got a spare to keep on hand. If I find two bad ones, I'll just order another one. I'm quite confident I only have one bad plug -- it bahaves just like Canuck's machine.

Rob from the dealer told me the plugs have been updated (not sure if the update is an improvement) he got confirmation from Kioti that the updated ones are compatible w/ my machine and it's apparently the heat range that changed. He also gave me a tip that with the plug out you can connect the top to +12V and touch the threads to chassis ground and watch them glow to test them. If they are anything like the glow plugs I use in glow style model aircraft engines they will glow bright orange very quickly.

I'll let you guys know how it works out. Once this is resolved I'll be set for a while.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

 

[Dmace]

My computer died so I'm trying to do this completely from my phone so it may not work but I've uploaded a starting video from this morning before clearing the snow.
Try this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F90IQdwh-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Coyote machine]

I don't doubt there is a problem which may or may not be made clear to those watching your videos. If Kioti tells you to engage the throttle slightly, as suggested by experienced members here who have watched your videos, then I would do what they suggest as well as what the manufacturer states in the owner's manual.
You say you have no diesel experience, and it seems that your rudimentary attempt to verify glow plug circuit and key switch would support that theory. Especially since the key switch being turned to glow would put a load on the alternator due to the amp draw of the plugs that are working - as mentioned already. So now you've ordered one glow plug to test the idea that you have one dead plug. Pull the plugs and note which cylinder they came out of. Test resistance against the new one's values. If you have a dead one replace it. If more then one, order another and replace it too. If you have two dead ones I would replace all three and keep the still functional one as a known good spare. Think about ANY engine that has unburned fuel in a cylinder. What's it going to do when the engine is started? Smoke?
It seems your frustration is clouding your better judgement and causing you to get stuck in an endless loop. You need to move from trying to justify your videos and go to fixing the problem by testing the plugs and moving on from there.
Videos are of good quality, (except for the tree felling one...), but they're just bogging you down in diagnostic h#2l.
Move from problem to solution. Worst case, you're not on track with the glow plug being the problem- but from what I've seen and read so far I seriously doubt it. One other clue is you've owned the tractor for SIX years! You said yourself you should be able to discern when something is wrong, like in copious amounts of smoke that didn't used to be there on start-up.

Post back results, good luck.:thumbsup:

 

[malk315]

Coyote machine -- You've hit it right on the head, I plan to do exactly the things you mention. Actually it didn't take much time to record the video or annotate the videos or post all of my babbling (I can type extremely fast!) -- it makes it seem like I've been diagnosing forever... where it's more I can only work on the tractor on the weekends. During the week I can take quick video and type all about it on TBN pretty quickly!

I'll probably spend a morning working with the glow plugs. Unless the plug comes in tomorrow's mail it will be another week before I'll be able to work on it.

Derek -- saw your video. If you had a cold cylinder from one bad plug like mine and Canuk's behaved you'd probably have a lot more smoke and just take longer to get smoothed out. I'll be adding some throttle to mine from now on -- otherwise I've been doing the same start procedure as you holding the glow on. The pulse business to check keyswitch and relay is obviously unreliable enough that it's best to check w/ a meter at the rail under the hood if you supect keyswitch or relay issues...