CK20 won't start without jumping and then won't shut off even when the key is out

[jennapb]

First, please forgive me for being vague or seeming "uninformed"- the "mechanic-world" is new to me. In 2012 my husband finally got his very own Kioti! It is a 2003 CK20. On April 29, 2013, I left work on a gut-feeling and came home to find him lying on the floor, in a coma with blood coming from his mouth. He suffered a hypoglycemic coma which resulted in brain damage that I was told he would not recover from (I replied "challenge accepted" and to date, we are still proving them wrong). So, long-story-short, I have had to learn a lot of things over the past 21 months, including maintaining and troubleshooting his CK20 that he was so proud of. Here's the story:
Fall-2013, I began having intermittent issues with the tractor starting. I'd have to throw it on the charger for a little bit. By winter (we're in Michigan-it was brutal) it was more frequent. February of last year I got myself a Repair Manual, rolled the torpedo heater into the garage and performed all of the routine-maintenance that it was due for, including installing a brand new battery. I continued having issues requiring me to jump the battery to start the tractor, but at this time I thought it was the "polar vortex" causing the issues. In March. a new issue appeared-the tractor would not shut off when the key was turned off. Since we are (still) trying to adjust to our new fixed-income lifestyle (I was an Office Manager of a Lincoln Mercury dealership; my husband a foreman, journeyman electrician), in addition to the insane, fit-for-a-movie, nightmare that our lives have become, I couldn't afford the time to look into the issues, or the money to pay someone, so I refrained from using it as much as possible. When I did use it, the only way to start it would be to jump it with the charger. If I shut it off, even for a minute, I'd have to jump it again. And there was still the issue of it not shutting off.
One day over the summer, I jumped it, started cruising along, and it stalled out on me. I jumped it again and it started back up, but the dash lights were all out (the battery light was always lit up since the day that my husband brought it home) and then I couldn't get it started again. After talking with a few people, referencing this site numerous times, and turning to my loyal friend, Google, I turned my focus to the ignition switch.
So, I replaced the ignition switch and after giving her a jump, she started right back up, with the dash lights working, including that always-lit battery light and the same jump-to-start/pull-the-choke-to-stop issues. Never in a million years could I imagined myself trying to diagnose an electrical problem on a diesel tractor, but there I was, by the glow of a floodlight, flashlight and head-band light, I pulled the dash and spent the entire night working through the troubleshooting checklist-tracing, testing, wiggling, troubleshooting, etc., connectors, relays, etc.
My findings: first, I found the alternator ground connector was melted, so I re-wired that. Figuring that it was due to the negative battery ground, I pulled the battery and cleaned the terminals, cleaned up the negative battery cable, stripped any rust, cleaned, and rust-proofed the entire battery compartment (besides where the negative cable grounds to the frame). While I waited for all of that to dry before reinstalling the battery into the tractor, I went through and inspected, tested and cleaned each connector, relay and wire that I could find. Once I reinstalled the battery, I put the charger on it, but still couldn't get it to start so I replaced the ends with some brand new ones. It took some time, but the battery finally charged enough to start her up. I have come to the conclusion (my guess-by-elimination) that it is the fuel shut-off solenoid, but could not afford to order one until this past week, which I am currently waiting for.
Last night, I went out and after a nice long charge, started her up, put on the back-blade and did a few "warm-up laps" up and down our driveway. I headed back out to finish plowing this morning but have not been able to get the battery charge enough to get it started again (dash lights are still coming on though). Looking her over, I found that the alternator ground is once again starting to appear like it is beginning to melt again.
I guess my question is, would it seem that I am on the right track with the stop solenoid or am I overlooking something? Again, I am fresh to all of this, including the "lingo", but from what I'm understanding is that a faulty solenoid can not only cause the these kinds of start/stop issues, but because of the open circuits left by the faulty solenoid, it can affect other electrical components. And the only component really capable of draining the battery when it is in "keyoff" position is the alternator, which has a melting ground connector that is connected to the battery, for the second time. Is it possible that the non-starting/shutting off, alternator and battery issues are all related?
I apologize for such a long post, but I wanted to try to give as much detail as possible. I've been reading posts on this forum, and some of you guys really know your stuff. I'm lost with all of this and really don't want to prolong getting our tractor fixed, screw anything up, or end up hurting myself in the process-I've got two little guys and a husband that need me. For everything.
Oh, and I don't know if it is relevant or not, but there have been a number of times that I have heard the infamous "buzzing" sound that I have read many people mention in other posts. Almost like that obnoxious sound when you open a (later-model) car door with the keys in the ignition still.
Again, sorry for the ramble, but I truly appreciate any input that anyone can give!

 

[rustyshakelford]

Sorry to hear of your troubles but it sounds like you are doing a fantastic job working thru all the challenges you've been dealt. I'm extremely impressed at how determined you are with the tractor!

The fuel solenoid could have a short that could be draining three battery. However, I would check your alternator output. Should be around 14v when running. If it has an internal short it could be grounding to the frame and melting the wires. Check the voltage at the alt positive post and then at the battery.

For the tractor not shutting off, do you hear a click when you turn the key to the run position and then again when you turn it off without starting it? If not, there's a good chance that's your problem. I'm no familiar with your tractor but most of the ones I've been around can be manually operated. Might be an option till the new ones arrives.

Brett

 

[skyhook]

Sounds like your one tuff lady,:thumbsup: congrats on sticking by your man.
I'm sure you know how to use a "multimeter", here are a few things to check, if you haven't done so already.
Charge up your battery overnight, ( a slow charge),
then measure the voltage on the battery with the charger off, you should have around 12.5 volts, it may be a little higher because of the recent charge (could hit 13 volts).
Start the machine up and rev it to about 1500 to 2000 rpms and check the battery voltage again,
you should have upwards of 14 volts, ( your tractor doesn't have the strongest alt to start with).
If you don't have a voltage increase when running, it's "not" charging,, my guess is that it's not since the battery light is on.
Could it be the alt, "yes" or just a loose fan belt.
The ground on the alt "melting" tells me there is a short somewhere.
Its hard to tell, without seeing it, a picture of the wiring on the back of it would help,
the wiring could be hooked up wrong, I don't know.
Your fuel shut off solenoid is "fuse" protected and if it shorted , it would blow that fuse.
I have seen where the fuse for the shut-off has gotten corroded inside the slots it fits into,
causing the solenoid to "not" shut off, something to think about or check.

You said you replaced the ignition switch, theres a wire from the alt that goes to the ignition "start",
this wire "excites" the alt to begin charging, without it being "excited", it won't charge.
Something to think about, hope this helped a little.

 

[oldcowboy]

Sounds like a charging problem. I thought fuel solenoid at first but if it will start when charged then I began to doubt it however not shutting off indicates voltage remains to the fuel solenoid after the key is off. I am courious when you hear the buzzing sounds.

I would like to know more about your tractor, like year, model number, all that so I could check some other thoughts

 

[mddorange]

:welcome:
To the forum from Alabama. Sorry to hear about your problems. Bring a diabetic myself, I am very aware about your husband's condition. Most people don't know that hypoglycemic condition is much worse than hyperglycemic. Once when I was moving and in a hurry to get the truck back I passed out and fell off the truck. Lucky my wife was there and knew what to do. Sounds like he has a fantastic wife, lucky him, who doesn't mind getting her hands dirty. I would say that you have learned a lot more than a lot of men I know. God bless you.

 

[JD5210]

Just to add to what other have said. Electrical problems are not easy to solve. I think you have a short someplace or a bad part causing a short that is causing your power. Here is how I would start.

I would take the battery and have it tested, most car part stores can do this for you for free. Take the negative cable off the tractor (at the battery or where it connects to the frame), put a full charge on it or do this while you have the battery out for testing. This would rule out that any damage has been done to the battery.

When you put the battery back in, put a test light in serials with the negative cable. I assuming your tractor has no computers on it or anything that draws power, so the light should be off. If not you got something drawing power, which is draining the battery. You can remove fuses and see, if the light goes out, to help locate the offending circuit. I included a video of what is a test light, if you do not know what I am talking about. Your car parts store should have one.

On my tractor, I cannot hear the fuel solenoid click on and off, so you may want to use a volt meter. Without starting the tractor, turn the key on and off several times and see if the power is going on and off. This may help determine, if the problem is the fuel solenoid or someplace else.

Test battery before putting on the tractor should be over well over 12 volts (there are some youtube videos on batteries car/tractors same thing), put battery on the tractor and startup tractor should be over 14 volts. If the voltage is not above the 14 volts, the alternator or wiring to it is bad. You should be able to find a place to test it for you. You would have to take it off, the fun is putting it back on the belt. Unless you take it to a dealer, I would suggest you find out what the charging amps are first.

I would see about getting a wiring diagram, ask if one of the TBN members can help you with this. ALWAYS disconnect the negative battery cable (at the battery or where it connects to the frame), if you are doing anything to electrical system that does not need the battery connected.

Until you figure this out disconnect the negative cable, when the tractor is not in use.

Please consider posting back with your findings, so we can help you find the answer. Trust me there is an answer we just have not found it yet.

If you have not already done it, do a search on this site on just titles for CK20. I did not read all of it, but here is just one of many.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...kioti-ck20-start-issues-2.html?highlight=ck20

Test light video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbRF1Y3CVGY
TractorData.com Kioti CK20 tractor information

 

[jennapb]

I am SO sorry about not posting back sooner (my life gets CRAZY at times!!!) but the great news is: I fixed our CK20!!!
Here's the skinny since my original post:
First of all, I just bought the battery last year so I knew that that was not the issue. I ordered a new Engine Stop Solenoid and while I was waiting for it to arrive, I ran some new wiring that was melted (mainly the alternator ground) and also adjusted the alternator belt as was suggested, and checked over anything else that I could think of. Also, I started doing as suggested and unhooked the battery ground while the tractor was not in use, or while the battery was charging which worked great. I took it as another sign that something was drawing power even when the tractor was not running (ie-a bad engine stop solenoid. I have read that if it is bad, then the "circuits" stay open, which will drain power and could ruin other electrical components). Anyways, I got the new solenoid and installed it (simple!). Then I was bummed when the tractor still would not shut off with the key. The new solenoid was working though, we could see that, and we were no longer having the "battery drain issue". So then I began testing all of the electrical components all over again which led me to the Timer Relay, which was testing perfectly when I first began this troubleshooting-journey, but I remembered that the solenoid being bad could negatively affect any other electrical component. So, I replaced the Timer Relay and all is great!! I did a happy dance, tooted my own horn for a moment and told my husband "you have taught me well! However, I did not enjoy myself!" LOL!
I think that my father-in-law got the biggest kick out of it the most though. Him and my husband went to our local dealer and asked about the Timer Relay. The tech said that he doubted that it was the issue. He then read my notes and said "well, maybe. It could be it."
My father-in-law INSISTED that I call them to let them know that I was right and the tractor was running like a champ again.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for your input and advice. I'll definitely be back should anything ever come up again!

 

[Coyote machine]

Great job fixing a difficult to solve electrical issue. You should feel proud of this accomplishment, especially since it's resolution encompassed several different items, ig switch, stop solenoid, timer relay, and alternator/battery problems.
Only thing I would suggest if there is a next time is posting in the Kioti owner/operator forum, to allow for more Kioti owners to likely reply. We've seen most of these issues crop up at one time or another.
Your family is lucky to have a smart woman in charge.:thumbsup: