CK25 strange death symptoms

[VictorW]

Most of the bad IPs were the 2008-2010 model years. The key switch definately controls the shut off solenoid. Depending on the model year, you need power to the soleniod to turn on the fuel flow for the IP. There is also a lift pump for the fuel that takes fuel from the tank and pushes it to and through the fuel filter and then on to the IP. This pump is a diaphram pump that only puts out 3-4lbs of pressure. If your fuel filter was clogged, maybe at idle it can't pump hard enough to push the fuel through the filter. I'd check all fuel realted items first along with the soleniod operation. Many ignitions switches, which controls the soleniod, have gone bad and caused no start and improper engine running. Some members have posted that their fuel tank cap didn't bleed air into the tank and some have had dirt, bugs, etc., in the bottom of the tank plugging the fuel flow but this should also be seen when operating the engine at higer rpms.

 

[ritcheyvs]

The fact that it ran OK at higher power/RPM settings leads me to suspect that the problem is not a fuel blockage or the lift pump, but all of Vic's descriptions are correct. One poster speculated that a bad (poor connection) ignition switch may be the root cause for the IP gear breakages. In any case, these breakages seem to be limited to engines with the single coil (no hold coil) stop solenoid on the front of the engine.

 

[ERE]

OK, here is what I know so far. I removed the side plate from the IP and tried to move the rack with the rack pin. The rack would not move with my finger either with the key energized or off. When I cycled the key to energize the solenoid, I could hear a loud click and fill the vibration in my fingers. I expected to see something move inside the IP when the solenoid energized, but nothing moved that I could see. So, is the solonoid bad or the rack frozen? Do I need to pull the solenoid off to see if the rack is frozen? It seems to me that if the solenoid is frozen, then it will never release the rack so I can move it with my finger so that until I pull it off I could, conceivably have both a frozen rack and a frozen solenoid. Are there and tricks/hazards in pulling the solenoid? Looks straight forward, but I read one post warning about not losing a plastic part.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Go ahead and remove the stop solenoid so you know it's not the problem. You have to remove it anyway before you pull the IP, if it gets to that stage. I have not personally, removed the stop solenoid although several others on this list have. Perhaps one of them will comment.

I suppose the solenoid could have failed, but I have never read that reported here. I'm assuming you have a 2006-2008 model with a 2-wire solenoid on the front of the engine (vs an earlier version with the solenoid on the right side or the later version with three wires going to the solenoid).

The IP is supposed to work as follows: Zero fuel is injected when the rack is full aft and max fuel is injected when the rack is full forward. The rack is spring loaded to the full forward position but this rack spring is not super strong. The governor controls speed by limiting this (spring-loaded) forward movement of the rack or by pushing it aft if needed. The pin that sticks out of the rack normally rests against the governor arm. At zero RPM, the governor arm should be retracted (full forward) allowing the rack to move full forward, also. The stop solenoid pushes directly on the front end of the rack (not the pin) and I don't think it's visible. The stop solenoid spring is stronger than the rack spring so the stop solenoid will hold the rack to the full off (aft) position until the electrical power is applied. When the key switch is "on" the stop solenoid is energized to retract against its spring, thus allowing the rack to move freely as limited by the governor arm.

Some owners have freed up the rack by juggling it to allow the piece of broken tooth (which had been jamming the rack) to work free. In other cases, they disassembled the IP to get the broken piece out. To my knowledge, the fix was either (a) replace with new IP, (b) replace only broken gear (need source for new gear), or (c) rotate broken gear.

Good luck.

 

[ERE]

That's an excellent clear explanation, ritcheyvs. My tractor is a 2004, but the solenoid is directly on the front of the IP so I guess they mixed and matched things somewhat. I'm pretty sure that the IP is frozen, but I'll pull the solenoid to be sure, and as you said, I will have to pull it anyhow. My big worry now is the weather with the tractor sitting in the middle of a field for the duration; and of course, as these things happen it is the weekend with no parts support available. No help for that, however. Thanks for the great help and for putting together the kittrelcimmunitywatch resource data, if that was your effort.

 

[VictorW]

My CK30hst is also a 2004 and essentially the same tractor except for hp. Serial number starts with a "D". That solenoid should be power off for it to run. Turning the key on, you should hear nothing and the solenoid should not be moving or energized. When you turn off the key to stop the engine, a timer relay kicks in and energizes the solenoid for 6-7 seconds, moving the rack and shutting off the fuel and stopping the engine. Then a click is heard when the solenoid resets because of the power being turned off by the timer relay and the rack should be in the position as set by your hand throttle position. This year of IPs weren't known to have the failure rate as some later years but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Vic, Sounds like you have the previous version with the solenoid on the right side which operates the external "manual stop" linkages. ERE states his solenoid is in front of the IP. Your description of sounds is correct. In ERE's (and my) tractor, the stop solenoid makes a very distinct clank/click when you turn the key from off to run. It looks like Kioti phased in the different engine configurations at different times for the various models, probably whenever they used up all of the previous version for the specific model (i.e. in the middle of the year). You can look at MIE's online parts diagrams to determine the exact serial number when the "new" engine type started.

For ERE: Cautions: Injection pump timing is set by the shim stack between the IP and the block; don't lose any of them. If you remove the intake manifold, be sure to reseal it (new gasket maybe); leaks will allow grit to get into the engine which can ruin compression. You might want to send private TBN messages to Kioti owners who have actually done this IP R&R and solicit lessons learned. That spreadsheet should tell you some who have done the job. FYI, I just put that spreadsheet on a web site I host/maintain for our local community watch and I update it when I see new information on this forum (I expect to see ERE there soon).

 

[VictorW]

I was unaware that Kioti made changes mid year. My tractor also has the red knob and cable setup for manual shut off that is located just below the ignition switch. This system worked well. Wonder why they had to change it and it seems not for the better. From ERE's info, it does seem like the rack gears are gone. Another member had rotated the gears 180 as mentioned and another member advised that this place could possible repair IPs. diesel fuel injection turbo, Conestoga Diesel Injection injector fuel pump turbocharger willow street pa Willow Street, PA Home

 

[ERE]

Victor, I looked at my label data and discovered that my tractor is actually a 2005. I don't have the manual shut off, but I think the lever above the solenoid which isn't attached to anything is for that purpose. I thought I had a 2004. Anyhow, I pulled the solenoid and indeed the rack was frozen. Solenoid works properly when turning the key. I was able to wiggle (with some force) the rack pin back and forth until it freed up and moved to full throttle. I then reassembled and tried to start. I figured that the broken teeth were at or near the zero fuel position so I started with a lot of throttle. I didn't want the governor to drive the rack back down to the place where the gear teeth are broken. It started right up at about 2000 rpm - not nice, but once in a lifetime isn't going to do significant damage. I now have the tractor parked next to my tool bench so the rest will be much easier. I don't have to worry about ticks and weather.

Does anyone know of an injection repair outfit that has actually fixed a kioti injection pump. I figure that even with express shipping that option would be a lot cheaper than the alternative. I see companies that advertise a lot of different brands but not kioti.

Also, I don't mind pulling it apart, but where do you get new gears. One of the posts (can't find it now) mentioned using a bosh mini k pump gear, but didn't as I recall give a source.

Thanks for the help and support you've given to date!

 

[atgreene]

Did you change the fuel filter?