CK25 strange death symptoms

[ritcheyvs]

ERE: Congratulations on getting your machine back to the "barn." I hoped that jiggling would work for you. If you do this again, be prepared in case the IP jams at some position other than "off." Remember that there still is a piece of broken off gear tooth somewhere which could again jam the IP causing the engine to over-rev. You would need to stop it by starving it of fuel (disconnect or pinch off fuel line) or air. I could probably kill my gear machine with the clutch but you don't have that option.

Your best bet for repair would be a local Diesel repair shop if (a) there is one and (b) they are willing to help. I had an email conversation with Conestoga (link in Vic's email). See this post : http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/296793-kioti-ip-repair-option.html?highlight=zexel.

These IPs were a Robert Bosch design for small engines. Bosch is now renamed Zexel, at least for their fuel injection stuff. Zexel licensed this design to Doowan (Korea) who produces the IP for Kioti engines. There seemed to be some sort of license issue where some bonafide Zexel Diesel repair shops would not touch Doowan IPs (sherrym's experience). Others shops had no problem fixing them. As you can read in the linked post, Conestoga found the Doowan part to be identical to their in-stock Zexel replacement. Changing the chipped gear will not change the vertical dimensions between the tappet, plunger, and sleeve (assuming all parts go back in same locations) so there should be no need to re-calibrate the IP after replacing just the gear.

I'll opine again that leaving effected owners hanging out, like with this IP issue, vs proactively helping in the few cases when it happens is the difference between a world-class operation and an also-ran. A little effort on Kioti's part in these cases would provide more good will and reputation than ten times that amount spent in advertising. I suspect this is a Wendell NC policy, not a Korean one. I also suspect a greater percentage of Kioti owners follow TBN than the big brands because Kioti dealers are fewer and further between, especially since the recession. So many Kioti owners get their information here vs just calling or visiting their (non existent) local Kioti dealer.

 

[mx5guy]

see this link for thread on same problem and a shop that rebuilds got to be less money. Good luck
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...6793-repair-option-kioti-tractors-broken.html

 

[ERE]

Here is an update after going to Conestoga. They were unfortunately short one person and had a backlog, so I don't have final resolution yet but I found out something that surprised me. The person who checked my IP into the system took a picture of the label plate on the IP which was almost impossible to read directly. There was what I assume Korean on it, but we also saw the words zexel and most surprisingly, "made in germany" was on the first line of the plate. I'll close this out when I get the IP back.

 

[dfkrug]

These IPs were a Robert Bosch design for small engines. Bosch is now renamed Zexel, at least for their fuel injection stuff. Zexel licensed this design to Doowan (Korea) who produces the IP for Kioti engines. There seemed to be some sort of license issue where some bonafide Zexel Diesel repair shops would not touch Doowan IPs (sherrym's experience). Others shops had no problem fixing them. As you can read in the linked post, Conestoga found the Doowan part to be identical to their in-stock Zexel replacement. Changing the chipped gear will not change the vertical dimensions between the tappet, plunger, and sleeve (assuming all parts go back in same locations) so there should be no need to re-calibrate the IP after replacing just the gear.

Great post, Scott.

I have been following any posts on this issue and encourage anyone who has this problem to post, and not resort
to PMs. When/if this gear failure happens to one of us multitudinous DaeDong M27 owners, and finding a source
for the part is problematic, a custom-made gear may be the way to go.

My CK30 (430 hrs) is an 05 and of the earlier IP design.

 

[ritcheyvs]

As far as I can tell, this (broken IP gear tooth) failure seems to be limited to engines with the second version of the electrical stop solenoid (SS). This SS version has only two wires and it is mounted to the front of the block, directly in front of the IP. The earlier SS version was external,on the right side of the engine, and operated via the manual stop lever. The third version (also on the front of the block) had two separate electrical coils powered through at least three wires. I would guess that SE models had this third version. The engine-type switch over (from first to second version) seems to have happened in the 2005/2006 period but at different times for different tractor models, presumably when the existing stock of the previous version was consumed.

In a separate 2013 email query to Mel at Conestoga, he told me:
"Thanks for contacting us. Broken teeth are a common problem in all PFR style injection pumps, and we do work with those. Feel free to contact us at 717-806-5561 for shipping instructions and current turn around time, or just to discuss this further..."

Typically, Asian companies develop a long-term exclusive relationships with suppliers, but it is possible that Kioti sourced the same IP design from Zexel and Doowan to compete on price. This is very common in the West but less so in the East.

 

[ERE]

Unfortunately, Conestoga was unable to get new gears in a reasonable time. They said that two of their suppliers cited a 1 year backlog. He also said that broken gears are common on this type of pump and they are used on many different brands. He mentioned Kioti, Kubota, Yanmar and others that I don't remember. Additionally, there are two types of gears for these pumps, short and tall. Mine (2005 Kioti) is the tall which is the one on back order for a year. He offered to put the pump together with used parts he had in the shop that looked good to him but said that he couldn't guarantee it for a year as usual. I agreed (I needed to spray the vineyard Monday and couldn't bear using a backpack sprayer). I'm back up and running normally and so long as the used gears hold up I will be fine.

 

[ERE]

I have been thinking of removing (and blanking off) the shutdown solenoid and hooking up the manual SD lever which is still on the 2005 models even though it doesn't have a cable connected to it. If the theory that the SD solenoid is causing the failures then this should correct the problem. I keep thinking, however if many different brands are having problems with this IP then maybe it wouldn't help at all. Any thoughts?

 

[ritcheyvs]

I have been thinking of removing (and blanking off) the shutdown solenoid and hooking up the manual SD lever which is still on the 2005 models even though it doesn't have a cable connected to it. If the theory that the SD solenoid is causing the failures then this should correct the problem. I keep thinking, however if many different brands are having problems with this IP then maybe it wouldn't help at all. Any thoughts?

ERE,

You may have a good idea here. As far as I know, this problem only occurs with the second version of the electric stop solenoid. On the other hand, the problem does not occur with the majority of tractors (as far as we can tell) so even if you make this modification and the problem never recurs, it proves nothing. But since you already have the manual system (except for the cable), I think it would give you peace of mind.

Were you satisfied with Conestoga and would you recommend them to others?

Thanks for the feedback.

Edit: As far as I know, every case of broken gear teeth occurred as the engine was shut down and with the rack at/near fuel cutoff. If other posters know different, please jump in. Based on this (and the model years effected) I suspect the second version electric stop solenoid is (at least) a causal factor, if not the direct cause.

 

[VictorW]

Is it possible that this second version of stop solenoid just reacts to quickly and puts extra stress on the IP gears or were the gears just made out of more brittle material and can't take the shock load the solenoid puts on them? If the solenoid is the cause, a manual shut off might extend the life. If the actual gears are the cause of failure, then I guess it's just a matter of time before failure.

 

[Gittyup]

The stop solenoid might very well contribute to the problem. When mine failed Wallace told me that a group of the pumps were made with the wrong alloy, leading to brittle gears. Don't know. As another data point, mine failed wide open. Good thing it's a manual. I just stalled it with the clutch.