CK30 Tach Trouble

[btward79]

Yup, me again. Since I got my light trouble taken care of I figured I would work on the tach. It only goes up to 500rpm while I'm using it at idle it's dead.

I received a wiring diagram from a forum member and according to that it says if your tach isn't working it could be the pickup sensor, FFT Hour controller, gears in the cluster it sounded like they were referring too or wrong wiring.

I pulled the connector off the hour controller and it looks good there. Not to say the hour controller is defective though it's counting hours fine. I went through quiet a few of the connectors under the floor and they all look good. Pulled the gauge cluster itself out. Everything looks ok there (though it looks like I should have a light on when 4WD is engauged and I don't have that...). It's not a mechanical tach so I doubt the gears apply. I looked behind the tach cover and I see no gears back there just a coil.

I called the dealer trying to find out where the pickup sensor was and he didn't know but said he would find out. No word back yet. Have to check again with him tomorrow. Does anyone else know where the pickup sensor might be? Or any other thoughts? I did a search and someone mentioned a yellow wire on the alternator. I checked that and it's fine...

I noticed the needle on the fuel gauge is a bit stiff. Maybe that's how it works, but the fuel level is down a bit and it still reads pretty high up. Can I manually move that needle and will it self adjust to the fuel level?

Loaded here with questions sorry. Lastly, I hear there is a repair manual for these tractors. Where can I get one? Dealer only?

Thanks for all the help,
Brandon

 

[phiferpharm]

I can't comment on all of these, but there is a light on mine showing a tractor when I engage the 4wd. The fuel thing is something I'm getting checked out at the dealer this week. Mine will go from empty to full when I only put in 5 gallons of fuel, then go down like a rock suddenly on a startup. It's almost like there is a float that gets stuck in the tank. I'll let you know what he says if one of our Kioti Guru's doesn't come back with an answer before that.

 

[btward79]

If someone knows where the pickup sensor is could they possibly take a picture and email it to me? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[btward79]

Just got done doing some testing. I believe I found the pickup sensor. Single nut holding it on. I pulled it out and it looks like a gear inside, so I'm assuming that's the cam. It has a white wire just like the FFT Hour controller that states thats the input from the pickup sensor.

With the motor running I measured .03v on the FFT Sensor white wire which is the input from the pickup sensor. That was at idle. When I rev the motor it doesn't change. On the output which is a blue wire with a black line I measure 6.70v at idle. When I rev the motor, the voltage goes a bit wacky and drops and when it comes back to an idle continues at the 6.70v.

I'm thinking that sensor might be my trouble... The connector was tight and the terminals on it looked ok.

The pickup sensor is right above the oil filter on the right side of the motor. The FFT controller is on the firewall of the right side. If anyone has a CK30 and wants to play test... I'd like to know the voltage on the white wire of the FFT Hour controller (it's labeled), at idle and with a rev... Any takers?

Thank You,
Brandon

 

[Coyote machine]

Ask your dealer for a service manual for your tractor model and you could also get a parts manual if you want. Based on DK series, the 2 are probably around $100.
Don't know the history of your 'light' trouble, but it sounds like it could be tied to the tach trouble?

 

[btward79]

Ask your dealer for a service manual for your tractor model and you could also get a parts manual if you want. Based on DK series, the 2 are probably around $100.
Don't know the history of your 'light' trouble, but it sounds like it could be tied to the tach trouble?

I will be getting a manual. But right now the dash is all taken apart and not much fun doing that. haha One dealer said 80 and another said 160 for the service manual. Those prices are a bit hard to swallow!

I found out the fuel gauge works fine. I pulled the float and cycled it and the wife watched the fuel gauge move. So she just didn't drink enough. Good news there. Most of my other lights on the dash don't even have wires to them from the wiring harness. So that's not a problem just not an option on the tractor. I do have a circuit it appears for 4WD. However, when I looked over the 4WD linkage I don't see any relay that would be tripped by engauging it into that mode. So I might not have that option either.

So at this point I'm just down to the tach not working. It's looking like the pickup sensor. I'll ask the dealer if it gives voltage numbers, in and out. If not then for this trouble it's not going to help me anyway. I'll still need one though.

If anyone wants to chime in feel free. Hopefully this thread will help someone else in the future.

Thank You,
Brandon

 

[phiferpharm]

Brandon, maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm assuming this is a tractor that is still under warranty. If so, would this problem not be covered as a warranty issue?

 

[btward79]

The dealer said it is probably under warrenty. He asked for the serial number but I was at work. I bought it used from a guy with 32hrs. I knew that was broken then. When I look at Kioti's site it says 4 year powertrain and everything else looked like 2 years. So it probably fell out just now or about to if that's correct.

Problem though is I don't have a real truck or trailer. I rented both to bring it home. ugh

 

[grampastractor]

My manual does not show voltages.
When I had this problem it was just the plug near the oil filter. It had gotten bumped during the 50 hour service. You have already checked that so not much help. Sorry.
Don. va3any

 

[btward79]

Update... The pickup sensor is AC current. Got home and threw a meter on it. With the motor at idle it measures ~1.6v ac off the sensor itself with nothing plugged in. Had the wife rev it a bit and the voltage would go up. We rev'd just a tad and it went to 2.2v ac.

I tested at the FFT hour controller input and observe the samething when everything was hooked back up which I expected too. Now the output which is a blue wire with a black line is the output to the tach measures ~13.4v ac at idle and with a rev it was unchanged. I flipped the meter to dc and measure ~6.5v dc.. Neither of the voltages AC or DC changed on the output under rev or idle. So I'm suspecting that FFT Hour Controller to be my problem. How would the tach know the RPM is changing if the voltage stays the same?

Dealer said that little part is $108! Ouch. If anyone has some spare time and can test that output on their CK30 I'd apprciate it! I have a pdf picture to send for it's placement. On the firewall right side. I'd hate to order that part to find out it's my gauge cluster at $300-400 bucks!

Thank You,
Brandon

 

[ritcheyvs]

The frequency of the ac signal is normally what indicates speed.

 

[Coyote machine]

Buy the service manual at $80- probably best price you will find.
Sounds like the only way to know for sure about the controller or cluster is to have known good parts to swap out to verify problem. Or call MIE (Michigan Iron & Equip) and speak to them about the problem and see if they can steer you in the right direction. They, and a few other approved advertisers/ dealers for Kioti on these TBN forums are good people, and willing to help out whenever they can.

 

[btward79]

Buy the service manual at $80- probably best price you will find.
Sounds like the only way to know for sure about the controller or cluster is to have known good parts to swap out to verify problem. Or call MIE (Michigan Iron & Equip) and speak to them about the problem and see if they can steer you in the right direction. They, and a few other approved advertisers/ dealers for Kioti on these TBN forums are good people, and willing to help out whenever they can.

Already had a message written back, but that changed. Dealer just called me, $70 for the manual but $15 for a Kioti drop fee and $12 for shipping! Ouch! I should get it next week, but I'm doubting it's going to give me voltage numbers off pins etc... If it's good it will. The gal was going to check with the guys in the back to see if it does or not but I still need a manual anyway.

 

[btward79]

Update:

I got the manual several weeks back and it didn't help at all. Nothing in there about what the frequency should be out of the pickup sensor. For the record Kioti uses frequency here (Hz) not any voltage measurement.

I've been working with my dealer who is relaying the information back to Kioti. Kioti gave me frequency numbers that correlate to a certain RPM reading. So the wife and I played around with the tractor and my Pickup Sensor (PS) in fact does vary freq. which verifies it's operation or should. I then measured to the next point which is the Display Unit (DU). Mine is a FFT/Hour Controller. So I end up with the same freq. on the input of the DU that I have on the PS. So that verifies all the wiring in-between. Now I jumped to the output of the DU. My frequency drops in half. So if I have 1000 Hz coming in, I have 500 Hz going out.

Kioti said that is not correct, what you have coming in should be going out (which then goes to the Tach Display itself). So bang there is my fix right? I order the part, it came last night. Installed it and no change. I still am getting half out of the DU. So on the input of the DU from the PS I get my full Freq. and on the output pin of the DU it drops it in half. It has to be the DU but I just replaced it. So the dealer is going to talk to Kioti about it.

I wonder if I can't just put a jumper in between the two points (input/output) to bypass the DU and see if that works? I don't plan on doing this unless Kioti says to try it. I don't know what current etc is going through there and don't want to damage the Tach Display. However, doing some reading it appears that the PS goes to the DU in order to regulate the hours on the tractor. So if you are running your tractor at a higher RPM the timer incrememnts faster and if you are running at a lower RPM it will count slower. I would be willing to bet that's the only reason it goes through the DU and there is no conversion of any kind going on in there...

I saw some past threads where people have had problems with the DU and I think I am going to be one of those stories... I just want the darn tach to work and be done with this!

 

[ritcheyvs]

The issue may be the way you are measuring frequency. Many consumer multimeters (that display frequency) are great for clean sine waves (read 60 hz exactly when you plug them into a wall outlet) but will lock onto a second or third harmonic of a ratty sine wave. This happens when I try to use my meter on my generator; I get about 120 or 180 hz when I know it's really about 60. I am not familiar with your setup but the 1000 to 500 drop may be because your DU "cleans up" the signal for the next stage. If you know someone with an oscilloscope it might help understand what's happening. I would not be eager to bypass the DU. The fact that a new one made no difference tells me that ain't the problem.

 

[btward79]

The issue may be the way you are measuring frequency. Many consumer multimeters (that display frequency) are great for clean sine waves (read 60 hz exactly when you plug them into a wall outlet) but will lock onto a second or third harmonic of a ratty sine wave. This happens when I try to use my meter on my generator; I get about 120 or 180 hz when I know it's really about 60. I am not familiar with your setup but the 1000 to 500 drop may be because your DU "cleans up" the signal for the next stage. If you know someone with an oscilloscope it might help understand what's happening. I would not be eager to bypass the DU. The fact that a new one made no difference tells me that ain't the problem.

The multimeter I have is auto adjusting. I am just measuring In to Out. From what Kioti says there should be no difference, it should be the same. I believe the problem to be there, though I have a knock on that thought with the new DU causing the same issue. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened in life though.

I'm not going to jump the DU (input and output) unless they give me a green light. My mind is always moving so it came to mind. Doesn't mean it's a good idea though. lol

 

[Coyote machine]

To clarify: you have installed a brand new never used display unit to test the theory that your's was the problem causing your Tach to read 1/2 actual RPMs? Kioti tells you the input Hz to the display should be the same as the output from the pickup? Did they tell you what Hz should be read at the sensor output for any given speed, or as a constant?
I'm of like mind to Ritcheyvs in thinking that if a new DU is not changing anything- something else is the problem; and I would have to look at testing with a known good sensor to rule out the one you are currently using. I know you say your tests show it providing what kioti says it should but fact is you still have 1/2 your RPMs.
It might be easier to just put a sticky note by the Tach saying x2! :laughing::confused3:

 

[btward79]

To clarify: you have installed a brand new never used display unit to test the theory that your's was the problem causing your Tach to read 1/2 actual RPMs?

Yes, I received the part from the dealer which is suppose to be new.

Kioti tells you the input Hz to the display should be the same as the output from the pickup?

Yes, and it would have to be. There is nothing in between those points but wire.

Did they tell you what Hz should be read at the sensor output for any given speed, or as a constant?

Yes, I was going to post that here for reference but forgot. Here we go...
RPM --- Freq.
850 --- 481
1000 --- 566
2000 --- 1133
3000 --- 1700

I guess the rule is Kioti can't talk directly to the customer. This information is coming from Kioti not the dealer. The dealer is the middle man. That is making is pretty tough and also dragging this out longer than it needs to be. However, I'm thankful the dealer is trying to assist me!

Something I mentioned to her today. Is that I'm measuring ~560Hz at idle. If you look at my numbers above 560Hz is equal to 1000RPM. I doubt the tractor really idles that high. Mechanically the thing runs just how it should. So that made me scratch my head. I reported that back to the dealer earlier today.

However, that still wouldn't explain why the frequency is being cut in half on the output of the DU.

I'm of like mind to Ritcheyvs in thinking that if a new DU is not changing anything- something else is the problem; and I would have to look at testing with a known good sensor to rule out the one you are currently using. I know you say your tests show it providing what kioti says it should but fact is you still have 1/2 your RPMs. It might be easier to just put a sticky note by the Tach saying x2! :laughing::confused3:

Well like I said, Kioti said the output shouldn't be halved and if you look at the circuit diagram there is nothing else in there but wire. Right at the DU I get the output HZ from the PS. On the next pin over it halves it and that isn't right. Seems odd I would get another bad one, I definitely agree there, but it's happened before with things in life.

I thought about asking the dealer if they could stick the sensor I just bought on another CK30 and see if the RPMs work or not. That would help to confirm. I'll wait for her callback from Kioti, hopefully tomorrow to run that by them.

And no I don't have half my RPMs. That's the whole thing. I have half my frequency. Big difference. The needle on the tach never goes past 500 (It's stands at 0 at idle and as I rev it slowly moves and basically stops at 500RPM) under high throttle. It's not receiving the proper signal to send it higher. Which makes sense, because that signal is getting halved.

Anyone with a CK30 want to play test and measure their frequency? I'll send you pictures and a diagram on how to do it. It's quick...

Thanks,
Brandon

 

[btward79]

Update:

So Kioti calls back after testing their own CK30 and appologized saying it is suppose to be half frequency out! Which means the problem is with the dash. Those turkeys cost me $100 bucks for a part I can't use. The dealer is going to see if I can send it back but electrical parts are a different deal. New dash $481, dealer will give me a $40 break which I'll take but wow. This wasen't nice to find out. If they don't take my Display Unit back it looks like my dash will cost $581. Unbelievable.

I'm going to pull the dash out again, yes I put it all back together when they told me half out was wrong. So I'll take it all apart again and check the connections at the dash. They "click" on but I don't understand how a tractor with 32 hours has a broken tach. I'm hoping the connection isn't very tight and some dielectric grease will fix it...

On a happy note... I'll be ordering my loader this week!!!!! The tach is going to have to wait awhile if the grease doesn't fix it.

Thanks for the help all.

Brandon

 

[VictorW]

"Something I mentioned to her today. Is that I'm measuring ~560Hz at idle. If you look at my numbers above 560Hz is equal to 1000RPM. I doubt the tractor really idles that high."

My CK30hst does idle at 1000rpm which is what it's supposed to be. Thanks for all the info you posted. Interesting that it took Kioti a while to give you the right info but other than $$$, you now know what the problem is.