clay problems

JJT · Nov 4, 2005

( I think it's more likely that the 5"+ will work its way to the surface then beat down into the clay. )

I don't think those stones are going to work their way to the surface. I did my driveway very similar. Took off 12" of topsoil, backfilled with 8"+ of bank run gravel, (cobbles), added 4" of crusher run and it's been in place for 15 years. Once a year I'll take the box scraper and york rake to the drive, every 3 or 4 years I'll add a 15 yard load of crusher run and that's it. The driveway is 800' long and sees a fair amount of truck traffic.

have_blue · Nov 5, 2005

( I'll have a descent layer of 1.5" on top, so I'm really hoping the won't migrate up over time. )

Only thing you have to watch is road width. Make the bed 2 or 3' wider than the desired road width and it probably won't creep back up on you.

ccdck20hst · Nov 5, 2005

Yup, clay in a gravel road bed is a bummer. Long time ago my folks had a house in Townsend, VT off about a two mile long dirt/clay/gravel town road and our 1/4 mile driveway. When it rained real hard and long my brothers and I would "ditch" parts of the driveway subject to wash out by etching accross the driveway in those areas not served by culverts. In mud season one year I watch my dad take a sapling about seven feet long and stick it straght down, until it was out of site in a "mud pot hole" in the town road that we had been driving around (got stuck in it a couple a times first). I have clay on my small lot here in northwestern CT. Here in Goshen they used to make clay pottery with the clay. Anyho you might end up getting a 1,000 foot roll (6 feet wide I have read) of geotextile grid to put under the first six inches? or so of your gravel. This would let your driveway "float" over the clay. I am not an engineer but they talk about this product as allowing one to basically put a patio over mud and have it work right. Also can be used for roads I beleive. The material is plastic with the gird holes being about an inch apart I think. I am thinking of using it on my short driveway to aviod pot holes if I put down a driveway may of pavers. Good luck with it. Charlie

RonR · Nov 5, 2005

This thread is going two ways........

For clay to grow stuff in, I first tried adding hundreds of pounds of gypsum over five years. Didn't really see much change in our fescue lawn (in clay).

Last year, we topdressed with 6,000 pounds of composted zoo doo. It really has made the lawn springy when you walk over it now. Before, when it was dry, it was like walking on concrete. All the new organic stuff seems to have helped the ground grow grass better. We're thinking of next year, adding another 2-3000 pounds. Might use an aerator then to work it in (or use the aerator prior to adding the zoodoo).

My two cents.

ron

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

Charlie,

Yeah, I have hundreds of feet of geotextile here. It will be used for the main sections that are not in need of the big 5" stone. Our geotextile is tightly woven and extremely strong. Excellent stuff. As a friend told me, "Even scraps of it make a big difference". These rolls are 12.5' wide and 400' long.

Townsend is about an hour south of me. Used to drive through it all the time on my way south to Boston or the Cape.

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

Like that will be, but why do you think that's the case? How does the bed width affect stone migration......

I'll leave the top layer a bit shy of the base for easier drainage.

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

Yeah, it's turned into a general clay discussion. That's OK /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I still hate clay......

Farwell · Nov 6, 2005

Jim,
There is a Geotextile Grid product that is not a woven fabric, it is a bunch of little boxes that are in a mesh like form that actually holds the rock in place. I have seen it in California in flood prone areas along highways. Those boxes are 6 inch by 6 inch squares that have a 4 inch or larger walls. There are many different sizes and uses for these products. If you already have the Geotextile mat material I am probably telling you something that you already know.
Farwell

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

Yep, you're right.....I've looked at websites of various manufacturers and there are many different kinds. I saw some "fabric" that was made with strands of Kevlar believe it or not. A 400' roll of the stuff was something like $1200. However, they claim you can lay big rock on top of it and basically build a road or parking lot on top of a swamp /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

We're pretty lucky to have these materials and technology available to us. I thank my hoe everytime I use it. Immigrants used to do this work by hand......absolute craziness. The shovel just bounces off and my back hurts after 15 minutes of hand work. Maybe it's just that I'm getting "soft" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RonR · Nov 6, 2005

I learned a lot when I bought the current house!

Grew up in rich, sandy loam ground that was wonderful to grow stuff in. Our first house has similar sandy loam. Not quite as good as Dad's house, but tolerable.

Then we moved. I never thought to check the soil! The house had a nice lawn on it. Little did I know that when dry, a pickaxe wouldn't penetrate it! And don't think about using a hand shovel.

We tried to put a cedar fence around the back to keep our dog in. I rented a 20HP tractor and PHD. Knowing what I know now, the PHD auger tip was probably not set right, but we spent 8 hours digging 24 holes, some only 18" deep.

When we shop for the next house, the realtor will think I'm nuts, but I'm taking a hand trowel and digging a hole a foot deep in a few places to check out the dirt...............

I know some in our area got so fed up, they hired bobcats to take out a foot of "topsoil", replaced it with real topsoil, and planted in it..........

Good luck with your clay!

Ron

SLOBuds · Nov 6, 2005

I have read so many theories about clay over the years. And talked to expert after expert. All of those readings and experts kind of follow the advise in this thread: many different experiences, including some successes and some failures.

One thing in your post struck a theme though. A couple of folks believe that one can 'dig through' the clay so that water can then drain. Well, that might be so for certain places but it never worked for me. I just got more and more clay the further I dug.

I do believe that the soil can be improved more towards loam over a very long period of time. But that will be a VERY long period of time. I don't think that loam over clay will provide a bed for non-clay-loving plants to thrive. The underlying clay is simply an impermeable layer. Some root systems don't even make it through the clay. (Some do very well.)

I have actually seen places where there is loam on top, and clay below, where top watering has 'floated' sideways and comes out somewhere far from where the water was introduced.

RonR · Nov 6, 2005

Martin, agree "fixing" clay soil is a LONG TERM project. Everything I read to fix most soil issues (for lawns) suggested adding organic. I had our soil tested and it also suggested adding organic.

As a side note, when we had our irrigation well dug, I watched the dirt that came out of the 60 ft hole. It was clay all the way down! What came out once the drill was at the water table level was saturated clay. It was the most yucky stuff; you couldn't cut it with a shovel and when it dried, it was like steel. Fortunately, I was able to use it rapidly as deep fill, so we got rid of it quickly.

Ron

PineRidge · Nov 6, 2005

On a very positive note should you ever decide that you want a pond you have all the right materials for the job.

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

JimMorrissey · Nov 6, 2005

It's just a horrible material to work with.

jinman · Nov 7, 2005

( On a very positive note should you ever decide that you want a pond you have all the right materials for the job. )

...but don't try to dig the pond with your tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I have a pond that's been dry as a bone for two months. I decided to dig out some of the sludge with my tractor. What a surprise. Driving over it was like driving over a huge sponge. When I started to dig, I found out it was about two to three feet of clay down to the original pond bed. Only one problem, as soon as I went down 18" the clay turned to wet pudge. It looked like chocolate pudding and the same consistency.

I spent about three days and got out about 250 yards of silt. It worked me to death and the job is only 1/4 done. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I found that if I got my bucket full, the top shelf of clay would fail and the tires would drop down to the pudge. I'd have to dump the load and push myself out with the bucket. I could only get about 1/2 bucket at a time. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I decided what I really need is an excavator. I also need something bigger than my tractor to handle the spoils. Oh well, it was a good learning experience. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JimMorrissey · Nov 7, 2005

Definitely something to be learned over time. Many times we like to think our machines can do "everything", but weight and reach among other things, are a big advantage.

EddieWalker · Nov 7, 2005

(
One thing in your post struck a theme though. A couple of folks believe that one can 'dig through' the clay so that water can then drain. Well, that might be so for certain places but it never worked for me. I just got more and more clay the further I dug. )

Martin,
I think your refering to gardening in clay and not building a road on it. But if you were talking about road building, then I wanted to clarify my earlier post, just in case. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Two things happen in my area when dealing with clay and water. One, the water sits on the clay and seeps into the ground creating a boggy mess. Or as Jim just said, Pudge. The second is when it does rain, the water will run along the surface like it's pavement and create massive rivers in some cases.

When building roads, I don't dig down at all, but scrape off the surface material until the organic material is gone. Then I dig drainage canals along both sides of the road and build up a crown in the middle. Once this packs down, it will support road base rock without anything else. If it's really sloppy and isn't packing down, I've seen others bring in large rock for base, but I'm not in that big a rush, so I let it pack down over time first.

This sounds really basic, but some of the pics I've seen of roads being cleared make me question about how tall the crowns are being built up before putting down rock. Dirt is allot cheaper than rock. Moving tons and tons of it can be tedious, and compacting it is a whole new thread, but you have to have the material shaped properly for everything to work together.

As for gardening with it, you can hate it, or work with it. I only plant plants that will natralize with minimal care and thrive in the soil I have.

Eddie

jimmysisson · Nov 7, 2005

Actually, not that good for the retaining wall either. Come your hard VT winter that clay will expand like nothing else and try to push your wall away a little more each year. At least have a couple of feet (horizontal) of pervious soil (gravel, stone, bank run) behind the wall, and drain pipes. That stuff is nasty to build around. I've seen pole buildings that go up and down 3-4" where there's clay backfilling the poles, and I'm south of you a hundred miles. Take care, Jim

SLOBuds · Nov 7, 2005

Definitely, I am talking about gardening.

The message thread was hijacked a bunch of times, and I thought that I'd just jump in since I dislike clay gardening so much! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I plan to learn more about clay building so that I am not totally prejudiced against that form of dirt!

I myself am building a straw bale house. In the process of choosing one of these 'alternative' building materials, I took a look at rammed earth among other things.

These rammed earth walls can be absolutely spectacular. They toss some dyes in the dirt as it is being rammed. The dyes create interesting patterns in the walls that are beautiful.

Then I am also reading about folks from Texas who come to enjoy their red clay dirt. Over a period of time the apparently acquire skills at working with that material. Much like you were saying about how to scrape off the loam, put a crown on the top, and then drop crushed rock over all that.

On the gardening side I don't think I will ever totally enjoy the experience. If the clay is dry, you are basically working with cement. If the clay is wet, you are working with stuff that is hard to walk through and sticks to your shovel. Clay mud on your shoes needs to be sprayed off with a pressure sprayer.

etc etc etc

Great thread!