Cold start failure

[skyhook]

Still wrong. Heat from compression is required for a diesel to run. Without it, they won't run....period.

This, I agree with,
Of course heat is generated upon compression to start a diesel,
but a cold engine block "will not" rob this heat and prevent it from starting, that is false.
It may make it more difficult, but it will start with the three elements I've stated, this I know for a fact.
And I'm saying , "even without glow plugs or pre-heats".
I did say it may need a shot of either to help it along, if needed.

 

[GManBart]

This, I agree with,
Of course heat is generated upon compression to start a diesel,
but a cold engine block "will not" rob this heat and prevent it from starting, that is false.
It may make it more difficult, but it will start with the three elements I've stated, this I know for a fact.
And I'm saying , "even without glow plugs or pre-heats".
I did say it may need a shot of either to help it along, if needed.

Okay, you can disagree with proven facts all you want. If the block/heads/pistons being cold didn't matter, there wouldn't be such things as glow plugs and grid heaters.

Saying that it can make it more difficult to start, but not prevent it from starting is just silly....at some point it will be cold enough that the engine isn't going to start without something additional to create heat.

 

[Danny C]

Okay, you can disagree with proven facts all you want. If the block/heads/pistons being cold didn't matter, there wouldn't be such things as glow plugs and grid heaters.

Saying that it can make it more difficult to start, but not prevent it from starting is just silly....at some point it will be cold enough that the engine isn't going to start without something additional to create heat.

You are correct; once the amount of heat which is absorbed by the engine block and cylinder heads is equal to the heat generated by the compression of the fuel/air mixture, a diesel engine will not start. Actually, that point would be when the heat generated through compression is less that the heat absorbtion rate of the block and cylinder head and lower than the ignition point of diesel.

What is that temperature? I don't know, but it's cold! That is why we add heat to the engine pre-start via intake heaters, glow plugs, block heaters, oil heaters and coolant heaters or use a fuel (ether) that ignites at a lower temperature.

*Edit: Clarified first paragraph: Actually, that point would be when the heat generated through compression is less that the heat absorbtion rate of the block and cylinder head and lower than the ignition point of diesel.

 

[skyhook]

A faster turning engine will create more combustible heat than a slower turning one and will not be affected by the lose that a cold block will remove from it.
Do you at least agree with this....lol
Or am I just being silly again.

 

[jix]

No shots of ether, please. Not in a small diesel engine. Might as well use a shot of nitroglycerine.

 

[jix]

A faster turning engine will create more combustible heat than a slower turning one and will not be affected by the lose that a cold block will remove from it.
Do you at least agree with this....lol
Or am I just being silly again.

Cannot disagree with this fact, given that there is enough compression in the engine to create the required heat for combustion. The cold soaked engine will cool the intaken air, but the peak of compression is so brief as to render that small amount of cooling irrelevant. That is one of the reasons why the engine must be cranked fast and have an intact compression ratio. Having said that, there is a point of cold temperature where the intaken air is just too cold to get hot enough to initiate combustion, hence the need for intake air heaters and glow plugs, plus arctic diesel fuel. I have started small diesel engines in new condition at 50 below celcius using only glow plugs. At suych temperature extremes crankcase oil can become a solid. If so, that will destroy the engine when it is cranked, so the oil pan must first be warmed a bit by direct heat from some independant source, such as a torch. Any oil will freeze solid at the temperature of dry ice. Ask me how I know.

 

[Danny C]

A faster turning engine will create more combustible heat than a slower turning one and will not be affected by the lose that a cold block will remove from it.
Do you at least agree with this....lol
Or am I just being silly again.

Skyhook, at Absolute Zero (0 Kelvin), there is no heat energy and at that temperature, no amount of turning a diesel engine at any speed within normal operating parameters (RPM) will generate enough heat for it to start as the heat generated would be lost to the environment. #1 Diesel won't auotignight until it reaches 177C (350.6F).

Since we aren't likely to experience Absolute Zero, in practical terms such as the OP stated (-22F), A diesel engine's starter motor (in most cases), on it's own, can't turn an engine fast enough to generate enough heat from compression to start the engine before the battery dies without some sort of aid (extra batteries wired paraell, a battery charger that can input power as fast as a battery is being discharged, intake heaters, glow plugs, block heaters, oil heaters and coolant heaters or use a fuel (ether) that ignites at a lower temperature). But the OP has a block heater which was plugged in and the engine was warm.

I still think his problem is gelled fuel, but then again we haven't heard from him since Sunday evening. We still haven't heard from the OP since Sunday evening. I'd love for him to report back with his findings.

 

[GManBart]

A faster turning engine will create more combustible heat than a slower turning one and will not be affected by the lose that a cold block will remove from it.
Do you at least agree with this....lol
Or am I just being silly again.

The faster turning engine will create more heat, but it will still be affected by heat loss to the cold engine.

Whether it's enough to prevent the engine from starting depends upon a whole bunch of other factors...how cold the engine is, how cold the ambient air is that gets drawn into the engine (and it's density to some degree which will vary with barometric pressure), what treatment is in the fuel, how well the rings and valves seal, etc, etc, etc.

 

[skyhook]

Skyhook, at Absolute Zero (0 Kelvin), there is no heat energy and at that temperature, no amount of turning a diesel engine at any speed within normal operating parameters (RPM) will generate enough heat for it to start as the heat generated would be lost to the environment. #1 Diesel won't auotignight until it reaches 177C (350.6F).

Since we aren't likely to experience Absolute Zero, in practical terms such as the OP stated (-22F), A diesel engine's starter motor (in most cases), on it's own, can't turn an engine fast enough to generate enough heat from compression to start the engine before the battery dies without some sort of aid (extra batteries wired paraell, a battery charger that can input power as fast as a battery is being discharged, intake heaters, glow plugs, block heaters, oil heaters and coolant heaters or use a fuel (ether) that ignites at a lower temperature). But the OP has a block heater which was plugged in and the engine was warm.

I still think his problem is gelled fuel, but then again we haven't heard from him since Sunday evening. We still haven't heard from the OP since Sunday evening. I'd love for him to report back with his findings.

Lets not get side tracked here....
For those of you who aren't aware, Absolute Zero is....

−273.15ｰ on the Celsius scale

−459.67ｰ on the Fahrenheit scale

Given those temps, I myself wouldn't start...

I did say " a strong turning engine" however that is accomplished.
You could very well be right on the "gelled fuel" for the OP.

 

[bigdeano]

If I had the OP's problem of not starting, I'd point my 110,000 btu torpedo heater under the front of the tractor for an hour. The tractor would think it's starting on an 80 deg day.

Another way would be to tow it with something gasoline powered, which would be more likely to start at that temperature

 

[dieseleric]

If you have to use starting fluid. Use silicone spray. Its highly flammable and also as a lot of lubrication. Works really well. If your going to use it on something with glow plugs. At least make sure that the pre heat light is out and you are cranking the engine over. Best way is to disconnect the glow plug relay or pull the fuse.

 

[oldpilgrim]

This is my first winter with a diesel. I haven't started my Mahindra for about 2 weeks. The temps have barely reached 20F, hovered mostly in the teens in the day time, single digits in the evening and gone to zero F and below several times.

Several friends who know diesels have told me that the Mitsubishi diesel is a great engine when it comes to cold starts so I've been waiting anxiously to see how it starts when it's cold.

I've always been a believer that a warm battery is the best thing you can do to start a cold engine, so I put a trickle charger on mine and leave it plugged in during cold spells. I did an oil change on it about 3 hours of run time ago, with 15-40 Dinosaur oil. I will have synth in it before next winter as I think it will lube better at cold temps. I do treat the fuel with Howe's Diesel Treat.

Today I went out, cycled the plugs once and turned it over. It spun over like it was summer. It took 3 revolutions of the engine and it fired up. It sounded like it was full of marbles for a few seconds.

I'm assuming the marble sound was ignition and not bearings. I hope it was anyway.

We still have some time to go where it will be colder, but based on what I've seen so far, I'm not worried about it not starting.

I guess my friends were right about the Mitsu diesels.

My brother has a Kioti. He has a pan heater on it, cycles the plugs 2-3 times and it still works to get going. It always goes, but not like a Mitsu.

Can anyone else compare different makes of diesel engines and their cold start characteristics?

 

[GreenheadRecycle]

"Can anyone else compare different makes of diesel engines and their cold start characteristics?"

First off I like your insignias at the bottom of your page Pilgram. Especially the last one.
You are on the right track. They all sound like marbles when really cold. Some may miss a time or two and smoke, also normal.
Just let them warm up good before putting any pressure on the motor.
Any diesel additive with anti gel properties is good. Everybody has their favorite brand. A "winter blended" fuel wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Battery warm is a good idea. Synthetic also good. A block heater is probably your best option in my opinion. It's not rocket science.
Take care brother...

 

[kiotiken]

Not plugged in, my tractor will start down to about -25C after that, it has to be plugged in to start. I only have a lower rad hose heater which isn't as good, but if it's plugged in for at least an hour, the tractor starts easily. Coldest I ever tried was around -35C. If the tractor will start at -26 but not when it's colder, the glow plugs must be working or it won't start at much warmer temps and the block heater must not be working.

I only go through one cycle of the glow plugs. Once it catches and starts running (no matter how rough), I'll hold the key so the glow plugs come on and that will smooth the engine out within a few seconds. When it's that cold, you need at least 20-30 minutes of warm up time at 1700-1800 RPM (according to my owners manual). I like to turn the PTO on unless the blower's attached, otherwise the hydraulics don't warm up properly.

 

[GManBart]

Can anyone else compare different makes of diesel engines and their cold start characteristics?

The Mitsubishi engine in my LS started well when it was cold (down to about -10F was the coldest I tried). The one thing was that you had to follow the manual's instructions (throttle 1/3 to 1/2 open) or it simply wouldn't start at those temps. I tried cycling the glow plugs 1, 2 and 3 times....2 made a big difference, but 3 didn't seem to offer any improvement. The biggest difference was that if you cycled the glow plugs an extra time it got to running smoothly much faster (like half the time).

The Perkins in my Massey doesn't have glow plugs, or a grid heater, and it starts incredibly easy when cold (down to the same -10*F or so)...just a couple of rotations and it's running. It seems to smooth out pretty quickly. I think I'm going to put a block heater in it to shorten the warm up time before it's okay to work it hard.

The Cummins in my backhoe starts pretty well, but I haven't started it much below 10-15*F yet. It definitely needs to have the manual followed (1/4 throttle open), but that's about it. I haven't tried multiple cycles on the glow plugs because it has a block heater, and after plugging that in for 1-2hrs it fires up like it's a summer day, and is much smoother from the get go.

 

[skyhook]

The Perkins in my Massey doesn't have glow plugs, or a grid heater, and it starts incredibly easy when cold (down to the same -10*F or so)...just a couple of rotations and it's running. It seems to smooth out pretty quickly. I think I'm going to put a block heater in it to shorten the warm up time before it's okay to work it hard.

You must have a good strong battery.

 

[jimmysisson]

I recall my 135 Massey Perkins the same way, just turn it a bit and it started. The 3PH, now, that wouldn't raise for ten minutes when it was cold.
Jim

 

[GManBart]

You must have a good strong battery.

Last I checked! I may take a video of it starting tomorrow (forecast to be fairly cold).

 

[Sportsman762]

When you start getting into really cold weather the battery will also need a heater. They make battery heaters that would warm the battery up allowing it to provide full power to the starter.

 

[Agvg]

The AD-152 engine in the MF135 are one of the best cold starters.
-20c is almost the same as 20c, no heating needed, of course its better for the engine to have a block heater but its not required to get it to start.

Battery heater is almost unknown here in Norway, if you are in Siberia at -50 maybe its a good thing.

Have the coldest I have been in is -40c and that's very hard on all parts of an vehicle. Even my diesel van starts on the first try in - 34c with no engine heater.