Collaped Sediment Bowl

ericwill · Sep 12, 2004

Hello all. New poster here from the great state of Mississippi.

My WorkTrax Tractor (Jinma 200 series)
has collapsed 2 Sediment Bowls so far.

The Dealer said not enough ait into the tank.

I have punched holes in the cap and tried running the tractor with no gas cap to no avail.

What is causing this?

Harrygoodwrench · Sep 12, 2004

I believe if memory serves correct (sometimes it don't) there is a screen at bottom of tank where fitting of sediment bowl screws into tank. Sounds like its plugged.

Soundguy · Sep 12, 2004

Like HarryG said.. if you have positive ventilation into the tank.. but the sediment bowl colapses.. the valve itself must be plugged.. or some screen between the tank and the sediment bowl is plugged.

Soundguy

greg_g · Sep 12, 2004

The fuel flow is a loop. If any segment of the loop is impeded, suction from the fuel pump can collapse the cheap plastic sediment bowls. Not that a glass bowl would fix the blockage, it's just that the collapsed plastic bowl is a symptom that wouldn't be evident with glass.

Anyway, the loop. Assuming the engine is running, the two places the blockage will occur is IN to and OUT from the tank. IN - means the injector bypass hose going into the tank. OUT - means the brass sediment screen inside the tank, just before the fuel cutoff valve.

On most new tractors, my vote goes to algae that has grown in the tank during shipment. Vibration shakes it loose, it clogs the brass screen.

//greg//

Harrygoodwrench · Sep 12, 2004

Greg,
VERY good point/analogy. Much like an air conditioning system any restriction will affect the suction side like the symptoms described. The return line system should also be checked as well as the inlet side to the pump.
Words of wisdom from a post from Glenn at Coastal tractor "Pull off return line and see if fuel flows freely into a jar/bottle, if flows freely then restriction is most likely on suction side."
Like Greg said, its a loop and any restriction on either feed or return will cause excessive suction and could cause bowl to collapse.

SPIKER · Sep 12, 2004

I would bet it is the screen just above the sediment bowl aluminum casing. OR the on/off valve being turned to the OFF spot.

the return line if it was clogged would not collapse the plastic bowl, it MAY blow the line between the pump and the return to tank, but that should not effect the bowl at all. SUCTION means that there is a blockage between the fuel getting IN to the bowl and the fuel storage location. (in the JINMA case that is only 2 things) the Valve and that screen.)

fuel blockage in the return line would actually slow the suction of fuel down as the pump would then have to pump higher pressure which means LESS flow and LESS suction on the bowl....

I NEVER turn my valve off, if you have been doing this, then it is not needed and will only serve as a reminder to you to not do it when you collapse the bowl... ALSO note, that fule shut off valve may not be compleatly RIGHT, (MINE IS NOT) the hole that goes through it is drilled off on mine so that when the valve is ON the thing is actually in the off postion that we here in USA would easly SEE as the OFF... I was not able to prime mine at first and had to mess with the hand pump for ever, and finally gave up and pulled the bowl and fitting off looking for a clogged screen, and when I looked into the valve it was closed, even though it was in the OPEN postion... (made me feel like a dolt for sure.) /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif since then I have not turned the valve once and it starts on about the 3rd rev every time when above 50 degrees, and the 4th~5th rev when colder and a bit of glow plug action...

Mark M

greg_g · Sep 13, 2004

( the return line if it was clogged would not collapse the plastic bowl, it MAY blow the line between the pump and the return to tank, but that should not effect the bowl at all. SUCTION means that there is a blockage between the fuel getting IN to the bowl and the fuel storage location. (in the JINMA case that is only 2 things) the Valve and that screen.)

fuel blockage in the return line would actually slow the suction of fuel down as the pump would then have to pump higher pressure which means LESS flow and LESS suction on the bowl.... )
I've already agreed that odds favor screen blockage above the sediment bowl. But I get the feeling you don't quite have a handle on the physics of fuel flow here. Rather than a modern pusher pump in the tank, Jinma still uses the old method where a remote fuel pump obtains fuel by suction (with a little help from gravity). When fuel is removed from a (sealed) tank, a vacuum is created - unless something (air) is introduced to replace the missing fuel. This used to be the function of vented fuel caps, but the EPA put an end to that.

An obvious function of the return line is to route excess fuel back to the tank. But obviously not as much is returned as is removed, so there still the matter of vacuum to deal with. A very important second function of the return line then, is to vent the tank.

If sufficient venting doesn't occur, the Venturi principle takes over. Remember the Venturi principle? It's what keeps liquid in a straw till you take your finger off the top. It's what makes your garden hose sometimes look like it "went flat". It's what picks up things on some assembly lines. Stop the IN, you get no OUT.

Try it yourself. With the fuel cap sealed tight on the fill neck, shut off the fuel flow at the petcock. Remove the sediment bowl, then remove the return line at the tank end. Open the petcock, fuel will flow. Put your finger over the tanks return hole, the fuel flow will stop.

But the FP isn't smart enough to know if/when the vent is blocked, even though the supply of fuel has stopped. As long as the engine continues to run on what's the fuel filter supply, the FP will continue it's attempt to obtain fuel from the tank that has stopped delivery because of the Venturi effect.

Metal tank, reinforced rubber hose, plastic sediment bowl: which one do you think is going to give up first?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For Eric

Right in the middle of your photo

is a little gold colored cylinder looking thing. That's the screen that we're talking about. It's going to be messy, but you'll have to remove the sediment bowl housing from the tank to get at it. You can buy replacement screens or screen material at most farm supply stores. But since you're going to lose fuel doing this anyway, I think you should take the opportunity to clean out the tank so this screen business doesn't become repetitive. With luck, they might also have a replacement sediment bowl and gasket of comparable diameter.

Your other photo shows a very black looking sediment bowl, indicating it's been a long time since the owner dumped the dirt. I make it a point to check the sediment bowl before I ever start up a cold tractor. If there's any dirt and/or water visible, it gets dumped BEFORE the tractor gets started.

//greg//

Soundguy · Sep 13, 2004

( Remember the Venturi principle? It's what keeps liquid in a straw )

Greg.. remember the original poster said that he had punched holes in the cap.. and even removed the cap... That indicates that it isn't a blocked vent/return line issue... the suction on the fuel bowl from the pump is the issue for this specific problem... Since the tank was standing open.. the only blockage that would be relevant would be from the bottom of the tank, to the top of the fuel bowl.. valve included.

Your logic is clear/correct.. just doesn't completely apply to this specific problem.

Soundguy

greg_g · Sep 13, 2004

Chris, it's not like this collapsing plastic bowl problem is a new issue. It's just new to Eric. Please read the entire thread top to bottom and you'll clearly see that I've twice conceded the problem is quite probably the sediment bowl screen. I went as far as to speculate the source of the blockage would be algae that grew in the tank while in transit/storage before sale. I even described to Eric how to identify/locate/replace the bloody thing.

The "Venturi Effect" info was simply to address Mark's assertion that a blocked return line can't stop fuel flow and/or collapse a plastic sediment bowl.

//greg//

SPIKER · Sep 13, 2004

greg:

you are missunderstanding what "Venturi Effect" is. venturi effect is the resuling lower pressure in a "VENTURI" where liquid flowing faster in a smaller diameter size line will have LOWER PRESSURE @ the smaller line size as the liquid flows PAST an orfice or opening in the smaller diameter line size.

still I'm well aware of the return line and how it works, I still dissagree that if there is no flue going back into the return line then the bowl will not colapse as there will be an excess of fuel pressure and hence no fuel OUT of the pump (high pressure no flow) means no suction up stream of the pump for it to suck the bowl flat. simple fluid dynamics. fluid does not compress, and attempring to suck out fluid from the closed tank will colapse the steel tank pretty quickly. the gas cap on these are open vented types and will not seal of the tank well enough to keep out anything more than some rain... Air goes into them very easliy but pressureize them the other way is what keeps the vapors IN, not the air out... this is leading cause of "Check Engine Lights" on NEW cars, people did not tighten the gas cap the recogmended 3 clicks... after a few min of driving there is susposed to be a + pressure inside the gas tanks to basically keep the fuel vapors IN not AIR out... if they were SEALED you would suck the tank flat in no time... also the carbon canester filters are SUSPOSED to be where AIR is easiest to suck back into the tank, I've also seen the lines for these get kinked/bent or damages so then a tank will collapse or you can hardly get the cap off /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

anyhow I still stay that you will not collapse the bowl if the return line is damaged due to the fact that FUEL can't get OUT of the pump untill a lINE blows from over pressure, and even then it is more likely to damage the pump first...

Mark m

greg_g · Sep 13, 2004

( you are missunderstanding what "Venturi Effect" is....
.
.
this is leading cause of "Check Engine Lights" on NEW cars, )
No. I'm not. The Venturi description was intended to draw a parallel. Since you took it literally, obviously the parallel didn't achieve it's intended goal.

But if ERICWILL's tractor happened to be a "new car" instead of an old technology Jinma, then we may have some grounds upon which to agree. Since it's not - I don't.

But this tête-à-tête is getting nowhere from the perspective of helping ERICWILL to conclude whether or not his sediment bowl screen is causing the plastic sediment bowls to collapse. I believe it's time we heard from the guy with the problem.

//greg//

Harrygoodwrench · Sep 13, 2004

The best advice to Eric would be drain the tank and pull the sedement bowl and check the screen I think we would all agree. Correct? sounds logical to me anyways as it a good point to start.
When I assembled my crate 224 I am a fussy sort( alright, alright a REAL fussy sort) well, I had tank off so I drained it and must say the fuel looked real nasty, washed it out in a parts washer and refilled with fresh fuel, new filter and started from scratch before ever running engine. In retrospect I feel my 'fussyness" was well worth the time as like I stated the fuel looked dark and just plain nasty. Lets get Eric going again and then we can debate Bernoulli's principle. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy · Sep 13, 2004

( No. I'm not. The Venturi description was intended to draw a parallel. )

Agreed.. but it didn't apply here.

( But if ERICWILL's tractor happened to be a "new car" instead of an old technology Jinma )

Also agreed.. see first line..

( But this tête-à-tête is getting nowhere from the perspective of helping ERICWILL to conclude whether or not his sediment bowl screen is causing the plastic sediment bowls to collapse )

Agreed... and talking about venturi effect when we are all pretty sure it is a clogged screen doesn't help much...

( I believe it's time we heard from the guy with the problem. )

Deffinately agreed.

Soundguy

Affordable · Sep 13, 2004

Well let me get my 2-cents in too, we have had a few tractors with the screen stopped up in the fuel tank in which they collapsed the sediment bowls,the injector pumps were collapsing them.Once the screens were cleaned out the problem went away, I think you need to clean the screen first and I think your problem will be solved.

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales

greg_g · Sep 13, 2004

( we have had a few tractors with the screen stopped up in the fuel tank in which they collapsed the sediment bowls,)
Let me slip in a question here Tommy, while we're waiting for ERICWILL to return.

I've had algae in my tank ever since I took delivery. Even after nearly 50 hours, I still see it accumulating regularly in the bottom of the sediment bowl. According to the parts manual, the KAMA sediment bowl assembly doesn't use the in-tank screen like Jinma uses. That - and a glass bowl - probably account for why I haven't fallen victim to "the collapsing sediment bowl" syndrome.

Anyway - when I ask for diesel algaecide at area farm/auto parts stores, I just draw blank stares. Can you recommend a source that doesn't require too much hoop-jumping?

FWIW, I'd consider it a great service to future customers if dealers would require the Chinese to use algaecide in all diesel fuel tanks - prior to loading the containers.

//greg//

Affordable · Sep 14, 2004

Greg,we have had what is called diesel bugs in our storage tank before and our supplier put something in the tank to kill them off,I will try and find out what they used.I think it is more common to off-road diesel.When we assemble tractors we flush out the new fuel tank with gasoline or kerosine first,there is some pretty nasty stuff that comes out.To get the chinese to put something in the tanks is not going to happen,I have asked for alot of things mostly on packing tractors for shipping to avoid damage,but nothing changes.I will let you know what I find out about the diesel bug treatment,I don;t think everyone is flushing out the tanks prior to assembly crate assemblers or dealers which could be the cause for some of this.It's been good for the parts buisness.
Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales

greg_g · Sep 14, 2004

( I think it is more common to off-road diesel)
Agreed. That, and Chinese bloody diesel.

The "on road" or taxed diesel is supposedly already treated with algaecide before it goes into the service station storage tanks. Seems to be true, as I've got a quarter million miles on my Mercedes and haven't had a fuel-related breakdown yet. 'Course, can't hurt that I change both fuel filters twice a year.

Anyway, seeing it termed "diesel bug" is a big help in itself. After eliminating the diesel Back Up Generators (BUGs) and the Volkswagen bug diesels that Google found, I've now got a few additive names to throw at the farm/auto parts store clerks now. Maybe if I'd asked for biocide instead of algaecide I've have had more success the first time around.

Thanks Tommy

//greg//

bmartin · Sep 14, 2004

We used to get a anti bud material put in jet fuel, and this stuff was poured in as the plane was being fueled. This was an option, you could get it with or without the bug killer already mixed so I am sure the material can be bought.

Soundguy · Sep 14, 2004

Greg.. try 'clearflame' diesel fuel contitioner.

Should be the standard anti-gel.. etc, with a biocide. Car quest has it.

Another thing to think about is cleanup after introduction of a biocide. Power service/ 911 mentions that is is a good product for sludge removal after treatment.

Bio-con from napa also makes that claim.

HTH

Soundguy

jsavarese · Sep 16, 2004

All,

A couple of disclaimers: I'm new to this forum and to the tractor world. On top of that, I'm certainly no expert on anything. Just had to get that out of the way right up front. However, I've been reading this thread and thought I might throw out a potentially useful (and hopefully readily available) option that might help everyone contend with the algae issue. Let me also insert here that I do not work for the manufacturer or supplier of the product I'm about to mention. I just thought the information I read about it, even if only partially true, would make it a very good option. Look to your local marina or boat retailer. There are plenty of diesels in the marine sector and they have to deal with these same issues, not to mention the extra EPA scrutiny. I've seen plenty of products marketed for this purpose (I've been been a boat owner and/or around boats my entire life), but came across one the other day that the manufacturer's claims caught my attention. It's called "Startron Diesel Fuel Additive" marketed by / available from Star Brite, 4041 SW 47 Ave, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33314 (800-327-8583 FAX: (954) 587-2813 www.starbrite.com). Star Brite is a fairly big name in the marine industry for cleaners, waxes and many other boat-related items, and their products are carried by just about all marine retailers. I've even seen their products in Wal-Mart. What caught my attention about this product (reiterating the manf claims): (1) It is/uses a naturally occuring enzyme (that alone must thrill the EPA). It supposedly also (2) modifies how the deisel fuel burns (provides for more complete and uniform combustion); (3) prevents new and disperses existing harmful microbial growth; (4) cleans the fuel delivery system and combustion chambers; (5) stabilizes fuel chemistry; and (6) reduces engine emissions. Wow, if it does all of that for marine diesels, it surely must be good for a tractor. What also caught my attention was the following manf claim, which directly relates to this thread: QUOTE: "Known as "diesel algae," these are primarily fungi, yeast and mold contaminates. If left untreated, diesel algae will ruin the fuel causing clogs in filters, fuel lines and injectors. Common treatment for this problem up until now has been the use of a biocide to kill existing growth and prevent future infestation. The use of a biocide can however cause other problems. Once the growth is killed, it settles to the tank bottom where it decays forming organic acids. The acids then deteriorate the fuel and cause corrosion of the tank walls, injectors and fuel delivery system. Additionally, biocides can be harmful to all those who handle them or come in contact with treated fuel plus, they can cause environmental damage if spilled. Startron uses its nontoxic enzyme technology to breakdown microbial growth into sub-micron size particles. These microscopic particles are then either safely burned away or filtered out." END QUOTE. Starbrite also makes the claim that STARTRON is the only treatment that prevents biological growth and eliminates existing growth without the use of toxic chemicals.

Okay, I know I sound like the head Starbite marketing person, but I swear I'm not! Like I said, reading this thread caused me to immediately think about this product that I read about only a few days ago in one of the boating magazines I receive. It is apparently available in 8, 16, and 32 fluid oz bottles and gallon jugs. I don't have a clue how much it costs, but Star Brite says that a single ounce treats 32 gallons of diesel, so a small bottle should last a long while, considering that most of these tractors hold less than 10 gallons.

Just another option I thought I should share.

Jim