Compact Tractor Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) Version 2.0

[finn1]

I, for one, would buy the tier 4.

They are cleaner, don’t smell, start better, and are quieter.

I have two pieces of modern equipment, and lived with dirty Diesels for forty years. The improvements are substantial, and I would never advocate going backwards, as our conservative friends would propose.

 

[rScotty]

I don't know. I'm a conservative friend in most things and I'm in favor or Tier IV for the cost/benefit ratio. I personally wish we had the luxury of more R&D time before these things hit the market, but I do realize that's not the way that the world works.

If the scientists, politicians, and most of the voters agree that it's high time and even past time to go to Tier IV, then the next questions from a conservative manufacturing viewpoint are simple: Is Tier IV is far enough along in development to be profitable? And are the majority of the customers willing to pay for it? Apparently the answer to both of those is yes, so it's a go.
Pretty simple, really.
rScotty

 

[5030]

I, for one, would buy the tier 4.

They are cleaner, don’t smell, start better, and are quieter.

I have two pieces of modern equipment, and lived with dirty Diesels for forty years. The improvements are substantial, and I would never advocate going backwards, as our conservative friends would propose.

Whatever blows your dress up I guess. Best avenue is buy a gasser and be done with it. Cheaper to run fuel cost and less initial cost as well.

 

[stephenh]

Last fall, I purchased a new L4701 after selling my '02 L3000. I started using the new tractor in some very cold weather, within four or five hours of operation it was barely running. I had no experience of DPE and regeneration, I did read the manual but didn't foresee a problem. I got back with the manual and quickly realized I needed to figure out how to run this thing with this new-to-me exhaust system.

Dealer service dept. was zero use. They claimed they knew nothing about any issues with DPE and had no advice. Emailed Kubota [which I've done in the past on two other tractors and received back all sorts of info' and advice]. Zero use, they said we don't know what you are talking about.

Finally, I rejoined this forum [lost tract when I changed email addresses a few yr. ago] and got on YouTube and found all kinds of info. Spent a couple hours learning, tried out everything, and tractor runs great in any weather \.

The real point is, I bought this new tractor at the dealer where I'd bought two others prior to the new emmisions stufff, and I had zero idea there even WAS new emisions stuff. I find it unacceptable that the dealer didn't mention any of it, just delivered the new tractor and cashed my check. Plus the service dept. claimed to know nothing about running the new system and any learning issues with it.

I am quite happy with the L4701. It would have been very nice, and professional, to have gone over these operating differences with me before delivery.

 

[5030]

it's DPF. not DPE but no issue. Dealers don't sell anything today over 23 horsepower that isn't common rail, ECM controlled and they all have DPF or DPF and DEF injection if over (I think) 100 pto, so why would a dealer say anything to a buyer because it's the 'normal' scheme of things now.

I'd say (from discussing the current T4 final units with my dealer's head mechanic, that 90% of the issues with the new T4 units come from owners not following the owners manuals concerning operational parameters. You need to actually read the operators manual instead of stuffing it in a drawer and forgetting about it. Kubota (and other manufactures plainly explain that in there. Not like the 'old days' at all. T4 final engines have unique operating parameters.

Between my owners manuals and the Workshop manuals, I rarely have any operational questions about my units, it's all explained in depth in those manuals and I sure don't pose a question on any Internet forum because I don't want someone's opinion, I want hard facts. Hard facts are a pretty rare commodity on any Internet forum (or You Tube) for that matter. Mostly opinions and opinions I don't need.

 

[jeff9366]

If you were talking DPE to the service department, they probably had no idea where you were coming from.

Tier IV phased in commencing 2009. Almost all dealer inventory Tier IV by January 2013. Old news in 2020.
You have to get out more.

All 2020 new tractors (ALL) in Europe are Tier V. No exemption for <25-horsepower.

 

[stephenh]

No, I typed it incorrectly. Don't know where I came up with "DPE."

I don't have a problem with the dealership, I've bought 3 tractors and etc. from them over the years and would go back if I wanted another. I didn't realize that this Tier IV thing had been the norm for so long. Been using my 2002 tractor too long, I guess. I know now, and I've been approached by several acquaintences to explain to them how to run their new tractors. I send them to Youtube to one or more of the Messicks videos [I think that is their dealership name...]. I'm so behind I'd never heard of Messicks but their videos are very informative. I'm all up on DPF now.

 

[jaydee325]

it's DPF. not DPE but no issue. Dealers don't sell anything today over 23 horsepower that isn't common rail, ECM controlled and they all have DPF or DPF and DEF injection if over (I think) 100 pto, so why would a dealer say anything to a buyer because it's the 'normal' scheme of things now.

I'd say (from discussing the current T4 final units with my dealer's head mechanic, that 90% of the issues with the new T4 units come from owners not following the owners manuals concerning operational parameters. You need to actually read the operators manual instead of stuffing it in a drawer and forgetting about it. Kubota (and other manufactures plainly explain that in there. Not like the 'old days' at all. T4 final engines have unique operating parameters.

Between my owners manuals and the Workshop manuals, I rarely have any operational questions about my units, it's all explained in depth in those manuals and I sure don't pose a question on any Internet forum because I don't want someone's opinion, I want hard facts. Hard facts are a pretty rare commodity on any Internet forum (or You Tube) for that matter. Mostly opinions and opinions I don't need.

Couldn’t have said it better myself .

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

it's DPF. not DPE but no issue. Dealers don't sell anything today over 23 horsepower that isn't common rail, ECM controlled and they all have DPF or DPF and DEF injection if over (I think) 100 pto, so why would a dealer say anything to a buyer because it's the 'normal' scheme of things now.

I'd say (from discussing the current T4 final units with my dealer's head mechanic, that 90% of the issues with the new T4 units come from owners not following the owners manuals concerning operational parameters. You need to actually read the operators manual instead of stuffing it in a drawer and forgetting about it. Kubota (and other manufactures plainly explain that in there. Not like the 'old days' at all. T4 final engines have unique operating parameters.

Between my owners manuals and the Workshop manuals, I rarely have any operational questions about my units, it's all explained in depth in those manuals and I sure don't pose a question on any Internet forum because I don't want someone's opinion, I want hard facts. Hard facts are a pretty rare commodity on any Internet forum (or You Tube) for that matter. Mostly opinions and opinions I don't need.

This portion of your "hard facts" is incorrect. Now if you change that to say "these brands" (then list brands) then fine. Some brands don't use common rail OR ECM controls still on their >23 hp tractors. I know Kubota does. And that may be what you were referring to.

 

[5030]

This portion of your "hard facts" is incorrect. Now if you change that to say "these brands" (then list brands) then fine. Some brands don't use common rail OR ECM controls still on their >23 hp tractors. I know Kubota does. And that may be what you were referring to.

I am, all I own actually. Maybe some are not but I don't own any. I believe that has to do with some sort of EPA credit but again not sure. Around here, you basically have 3 choices in tractors, JD, Kioti and Kubota, almost forgot, a Branson dealer opened up, up town, but I have no interest as they aren't big enough for my needs.

 

[5030]

If you were talking DPE to the service department, they probably had no idea where you were coming from.

Tier IV phased in commencing 2009. Almost all dealer inventory Tier IV by January 2013. Old news in 2020.
You have to get out more.

All 2020 new tractors (ALL) in Europe are Tier V. No exemption for <25-horsepower.

My bone of contention with DPF in general is, at some point in the unit's lifespan (unless it blows up early in it's life), the owner (whoever that is, maybe not the first owner and maybe not the second one but at some point in time, that DPF canister will have to be cleaned or renewed and they aren't cheap to clean or replace and the onus will be on the current owner not anyone else and not the factory either.

I've dealt with that exact scenario in Class 8 T4 big diesels and just to clean one is over 300 bucks and been my experience that many are not cleanable and must be replaced. The big ones are 500 + to replace.

 

[sandyc]

Wow.....great write ups. Wish I had read this prior to buying a b3350 a few years back. Sold that off. Anyway, gas may be the way to go. Ever notice what ups uses for their delivery truck engines? Gas! Asked their folks about that choice and basically was told that the gasser was less problem, easier to fix and cheaper to run. Wonder how many 8 n’s are still running?

 

[jeff9366]

Note that UPS started with a major commitment to Mercedes 5-cylinder diesel engines, which like the Kubota B3350, turned out to be unreliable in use.

Gas engines will never to return in compact tractors. According to Kubota's 2019 annual report, Kubota makes 8,000 different engine models. If tractor manufacturers saw a profitable market for gas-engine compact tractors they could put them on the market next week. Note the trend: from all-gas engines to all-diesel engines in compact tractors.

The next big change will be battery powered tractors, starting with subcompacts. Tesla has a battery powered heavy freight truck in development. Tier V emission standards were imposed in Europe during 2019. There are NO EXEMPTIONS for 16-horsepower to 25-1/2 horsepower off-road diesel engines in Europe. We will probably see battery powered compact tractors in Europe before North America.

 

[Milo]

Why do you say gas engines will *never* return to tractors? If gasoline engines can meet emissions with less intrusive and complicated add-ons than diesel, why not?

 

[jeff9366]

1) Diesels are 50% more efficient. Fuel price is nothing. Down time to haul fuel and danger of falling while fueling is major.

2) Diesel engine weight improves tractor capability.

3) Diesels run cooler performing field work.

4) Diesels have greater longevity where many express the desire to keep a tractor for twenty-five years.

5) Diesels provide high torque at low engine RPMs

6) Dealers have no interest in having service work complicated by gas engines.

 

[Bootlegger750]

Thanks, I've enjoyed reading all this. I've been around tractors and farming most of my life. I only own 37 acres myself. My Dad always owned either Kubota or Massey Ferguson. Myself, Massey Ferguson and Mahindra. I like the Mahindra cause of no DPF. Some of the newer MF's such as the 1735M for example, doesn't have a DPF. I'm more of a hunter and not a farmer. I have a Mahindra Max 28xl and decided I needed a little bigger & more HP tractor for my place. Bush hogging, plowing, disc and so forth. So I traded for a Mahindra 1640. I think the DPF is a good idea, I have a neighbor with a new tractor. He had problems with the DPF/emissions. Not necessarily the DPF itself I guess. Just the whole regen not working like suppose too. That's what worried me, seeing it first hand. It would try go into limp mode I guess you call it and try to regen every 15 hours I think it was. Lots of emission issues. He finally traded his green one for a MF 1735M. Last one on the lot...lol. Been problem free for 80 hours so far. I think the MF 1735M has the DOC like Mahindra uses. I could be wrong with the abbreviations. Just my opinion and observation. I think the DOC, could be wrong is less problematic that the DPF. Thanks for this post! Been a very good read.

 

[LouNY]

1) Diesels are 50% more efficient. Fuel price is nothing. Down time to haul fuel and danger of falling while fueling is major.
They used to be more efficent I am not sure were your 50% comes from and I doubt that would still be the case.

2) Diesel engine weight improves tractor capability.
A comparable gas engine is not much lighter and iron is easy to attach to a tractor.

3) Diesels run cooler performing field work.
Were did you come up with this? The cooling system is what cools.

4) Diesels have greater longevity where many express the desire to keep a tractor for twenty-five years.
Amazing I wonder how all those old gas engine tractors managed to run for many thousand of hours,
and many are running and working today. I would hate to try and count how many Farmall H and M's are still working, much less 400's, 460's, 560's, 656's.
Many of those have in excess of 10,000 hours on them.

5) Diesels provide high torque at low engine RPMs
Gasoline engines can have the same torque curve as a diesel, just check out the max torque and rpm of a Farmall 400.

6) Dealers have no interest in having service work complicated by gas engines.

I don't believe that is of any concern to most dealers.

 

[RickB]

I do not believe any manufacturer cares what their dealer does and does not want to service. Been cashing dealership paychecks since 1996 and never heard that question asked.

 

[5030]

Note that UPS started with a major commitment to Mercedes 5-cylinder diesel engines, which like the Kubota B3350, turned out to be unreliable in use.

Gas engines will never to return in compact tractors. According to Kubota's 2019 annual report, Kubota makes 8,000 different engine models. If tractor manufacturers saw a profitable market for gas-engine compact tractors they could put them on the market next week. Note the trend: from all-gas engines to all-diesel engines in compact tractors.

The next big change will be battery powered tractors, starting with subcompacts. Tesla has a battery powered heavy freight truck in development. Tier V emission standards were imposed in Europe during 2019. There are NO EXEMPTIONS for 16-horsepower to 25-1/2 horsepower off-road diesel engines in Europe. We will probably see battery powered compact tractors in Europe before North America.

They did to Kubota side by side RTV's, we have one. Kubota was 100% diesel until last year and then everything changed.

 

[bearthebruce]

The next big change will be battery powered tractors, starting with subcompacts. Tesla has a battery powered heavy freight truck in development. Tier V emission standards were imposed in Europe during 2019. There are NO EXEMPTIONS for 16-horsepower to 25-1/2 horsepower off-road diesel engines in Europe. We will probably see battery powered compact tractors in Europe before North America.

While I agree, I think there is a long way to go. Is 4-5 hours operation time going to be adequate? I think they should look to hybrid first rather than full EV. With a hybrid, the long hours can be had. New battery technology will be needed to make an 8 hour day of work viable. New charging technologies that do not harm the batteries will also be needed.

Research into new motor technology is also needed. If one is going to replace many of the systems on the tractor to make it more simple and efficient, then motors that can deliver high torque at low rpm and then be switched to reasonable torque at higher rpms will need to be developed. And do note, at both low and higher speeds, efficiency is needed to use the least amount of power from the batteries. Further complicating the design of such motors is the need for regen capabilities. There is a boat load of engineering still needed to bring EV Tractors into the main stream.

All that said, I agree that EV is where the development dollars will go. Diesel and Gas power plants will get band aids to keep them viable while the EVs are developed. The auto industry is doing very little development in gas and diesel engine technology as they see the end of the internal combustion engine on the horizon.

One article I read on EV Tractors said 10 years for a viable machine. I think they are a bit long in their thinking. We will see EV Tractors sooner in mass production. Like other decisions about tractors, the EV will be better for some things and not as good at others... The buyer will have to determine what makes the best sense for their use.

Price tags now are very very high. I think that too has to change to make the EV tractors commercially viable.

And while they tout low maintenance, do remember the battery packs in autos are good for about 7 years and have a very high cost to replace. As an example, a Toyota Prius battery pack costs $7K last I looked.. There is far more KWH in tractor batteries. Expect the costs to be higher.

These are a few of the challenges ahead.