Compact Tractor Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) Version 2.0

[5030]

And people whine about the cost of UDT when changing fluid...................:laughing:

 

[5030]

I do not believe any manufacturer cares what their dealer does and does not want to service. Been cashing dealership paychecks since 1996 and never heard that question asked.

Been paying checks to my dealer for years as well..............
Some are quite large.

 

[rScotty]

Quote Originally Posted by jeff9366 View Post
1) Diesels are 50% more efficient. Fuel price is nothing. Down time to haul fuel and danger of falling while fueling is major.
They used to be more efficent I am not sure were your 50% comes from and I doubt that would still be the case.

2) Diesel engine weight improves tractor capability.
A comparable gas engine is not much lighter and iron is easy to attach to a tractor.

3) Diesels run cooler performing field work.
Were did you come up with this? The cooling system is what cools.

4) Diesels have greater longevity where many express the desire to keep a tractor for twenty-five years.
Amazing I wonder how all those old gas engine tractors managed to run for many thousand of hours,
and many are running and working today. I would hate to try and count how many Farmall H and M's are still working, much less 400's, 460's, 560's, 656's.
Many of those have in excess of 10,000 hours on them.

5) Diesels provide high torque at low engine RPMs
Gasoline engines can have the same torque curve as a diesel, just check out the max torque and rpm of a Farmall 400.

6) Dealers have no interest in having service work complicated by gas engines.
I believe you are guessing at this. I was in service for years and never heard any similar sentiment by a dealer or mechanic.

The first 5 are comments in blue are from LouNY - I'm afraid I agree with LouNY on all those points. I think that Jeff was just trying to get a discussion going. He doesn't usually speculate that wildly. The last (#6) comment is mine.

One thing not mentioned is the cost of an engine. A low rpm gasser designed for torque and cool running is much less expensive to manufacture than a diesel engine. It weighs the same and has similar efficiency' it just doesn't have the requirement for super precision in machined parts. By now we all know that gas engines last just as long - and are easier to service. A gas engine sure would lower the initial cost of a tractor. And the emissions controls are far less expensive for gas than diesel. Frankly, I wish we had a choice of gas, diesel, propane, or electric for the power plant.

If we had a choice of fuels, I'd probably go for a gas-engined hybrid electric for my next tractor....just for the curiosity factor.
rScotty

 

[5030]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell for me...

 

[jeff9366]

They did to Kubota side by side RTV's, we have one. Kubota was 100% diesel until last year and then everything changed.

The subject is TRACTORS, not utility vehicles. Kubota's gas RTV 500 has been in the utility vehicle lineup as long as I have been posting on T-B-N.

 

[RickB]

They did to Kubota side by side RTV's, we have one. Kubota was 100% diesel until last year and then everything changed.

You are dead wrong. The RTV400 was a gas powered rig, the RTV500 still is.

 

[5030]

You are dead wrong. The RTV400 was a gas powered rig, the RTV500 still is.

You are correct, I stand corrected.

Still want a hydrogen powered tractor.

 

[5030]

The subject is TRACTORS, not utility vehicles. Kubota's gas RTV 500 has been in the utility vehicle lineup as long as I have been posting on T-B-N.

I got you beat by a few years...........................:laughing:

 

[powersrp]

My B3350 regens around 35-40 hours, most of its work is mowing at 540 pto speed, 200 hours avg year, I personally would not want a gas powered 35 hp tractor, diesel around 60 ft lbs of torque at 2000 rpm, without the huge gears in the tranny and diff could gas really compete? I can run my tractor for awhile in my pole barn before the air gets funky, (i dont do it, but i have),i have no need for a diesel truck, but for me diesel and tractors gets it done.

 

[Drstrangeglove]

I have a new Vermeer trencher/plow. It has a kubota gas engine. The sales guy claims the they could not get the engine to meet emissions regs and converted it to gas. We waited a year for them to work out the bugs, but the diesel never came. It beats the heck out of the old diesel Case plow it replaced.

 

[bearthebruce]

If we had a choice of fuels, I'd probably go for a gas-engined hybrid electric for my next tractor....just for the curiosity factor.
rScotty

Do keep in mind, at present, those high voltage battery packs run north of $7k to replace in most hybrid cars. I expect they will be similar in tractors. The math has to be done to see if the hybrid is cost effective for this application.

 

[jaydee325]

Does anyone know someone who has replaced their battery?

I know several people who were early adopters of Toyota Priuses and to my knowledge, they have not had to replace the battery.

Also, I've seen some posts on here where people have harvested the batteries in clapped out cars for alternate uses.

Kind of seems like a non-issue?

 

[finn1]

That $7k number was being thrown around, without source documentation twenty years ago. Batteries seem to generally last the life of the car in most cases, and the latest numbers I have read are something in the order of $2400 if there is an issue, at 2000k miles.

There are supposedly battery rebuilding and reconditioning services out there.

Electric power is here, and the popularity and availability will only increase.

 

[5030]

That $7k number was being thrown around, without source documentation twenty years ago. Batteries seem to generally last the life of the car in most cases, and the latest numbers I have read are something in the order of $2400 if there is an issue, at 2000k miles.

There are supposedly battery rebuilding and reconditioning services out there.

Electric power is here, and the popularity and availability will only increase.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[bearthebruce]

That $7k number was being thrown around, without source documentation twenty years ago. Batteries seem to generally last the life of the car in most cases, and the latest numbers I have read are something in the order of $2400 if there is an issue, at 2000k miles.

There are supposedly battery rebuilding and reconditioning services out there.

Electric power is here, and the popularity and availability will only increase.

Yep, the $7k is off for a Toyota - still spot on for a VW/Audi the #1 and #2 brands in the world...

But according to Toyota: in general, you should look for signs of battery wear after 10 years or 100,000 miles.

That also holds for VAG.

I suppose one has to also look at the KWH of the batteries to make sure size entered into the cost equation.

 

[jaydee325]

Getting back to DPFs.

Ran across this recently. While this presentation comes via the trucking industry, many of the issues discussed in this presentation could be related to the issues reported on TBN with DPF problems that go unresolved by dealers.

 

[5030]

I will tell you before I retired, the dealership where I worked bought a machine. It was 20 grand and was a dry machine and probably a good 20% of the DPF's failed to clean and had to be replaced. Tractor or truck, procedure is thew same and I bet failure rate is the same as well. That can on your exhaust is busy collecting soot and regen burns it to ash but it don't go anywhere. Stays right inside the can and has to be cleaned.'''and the ash is hazardous wast too.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP .........That can on your exhaust is busy collecting soot and regen burns it to ash but it don't go anywhere. Stays right inside the can and has to be cleaned.'''and the ash is hazardous wast too.

I've wondered about that. Where does the ash go when it is burned? Smaller particles are generally more dangerous - especially smaller carbon particles. Less obvious, but more hazardous.

Are we really doing anything productive for ourselves or the environment with regenerative burning??
rScotty

 

[jaydee325]

That can on your exhaust is busy collecting soot and regen burns it to ash but it don't go anywhere. Stays right inside the can and has to be cleaned.'''and the ash is hazardous wast too.

According to the information I linked to above, regen does not create ash. Ash comes from engine oil burn and hardening comes from regenerations and coolant leaks.

The real problems are not caused by the DPF, it is the condition of the rest of the engine, such as upstream leaks, that leads to the DPF problems. When these problems occur, ash is typically a contributor to the failure, according to the linked article.

 

[5030]

According to the information I linked to above, regen does not create ash. Ash comes from engine oil burn and hardening comes from regenerations and coolant leaks.

The real problems are not caused by the DPF, it is the condition of the rest of the engine, such as upstream leaks, that leads to the DPF problems. When these problems occur, ash is typically a contributor to the failure, according to the linked article.

Better read a bit closer. Soot (as in unburned particulates, (smoke) is collected in the substrate and burned to a fine ash by regeneration,along with blowby vapor and everything else that gets in the exhaust stream. The noble metal substrate reacts with het and cremates everything but the ash is left and has to be removed from the element. DEF is pre treatment, SCR is post treatment.

You only get so many regens and the element is full and the ECM senses the pressure differential and tells you it's cleaning time. How it works.