Concerns about 2nd/3rd tier brands

[Robert_in_NY]

Hey.. maybee it's them chinese tractors that are 3rd.

Where'd MF'er go? I always lis them in the 'big 3'

soundguy

Now Chris, Massey Ferguson is part of Agco and as such is not a 1st tier brand

 

[DK35vince]

Hey.. maybee it's them chinese tractors that are 3rd.

Evidently it must depend on how many tractors they sell. If they sell enough they could become a 1srt tier brand !!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Evidently it must depend on how many tractors they sell. If they sell enough they could become a 1srt tier brand !!

This is true. China is a huge country and we do not know much about them so for all any of us know some of these Chinese brands may be 1st tier brands. And to think Chris was going to lump all of them together as 3rd tier brands

 

[ToadHill]

Well Ches! as I said in my first post on this thread you sound like a guy with an agenda, maybe someone who deals in tractors that are what you've defined as the "Big Three". You don't even have the guts to let us know what if any of these "Big Three" you work with.

You just come on the board with a whole 20 some posts and pronounce to the rest of us who are the players in the world of tractors and expect us to believe you are someone with some knowledge.

Well you'll have to demonstrate some credibility before I for one buy your line of BS.

 

[AKfish]

I must admit to some head scratching on my part --- both about the intentions/direction of the original poster as well as the reactions of those in response....

I will assume (we all know what can be said about assuming, eh?) that given the original reference made about FarmTrac falling on hard times and the concern for buyers of their equipment i.e.; parts, repairs, future value of their investment, etc. that the OP was looking for feedback from savvy tractor folk's regarding the financial stability of the "smaller market share" tractor manufacturers. Especially given the current economic trend in the U.S.

If this were a home-builder or truck forum or automobile owner (pick yur brand) forum; he coulda asked --- whatya think about Anderson or Pella windows? Or whatya think about Toyota edging out Ford in U.S. sales in 2007?

And 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier? Once again, I assumed he meant market share.... sales. Units of SCUTS, CUTS, etc. I didn't take it as a slight or insult to any manufacturer or inference that one tractor is superior in any way to another.

Toyota just lowered their interest rates and extended the purchase time-window for many of their models. I'm hoping that tractor manufacturers are going to move in a similar direction that cars/truck manufacturer's have in the not too distant future.

Messick made a reference about tractor manufacturers having a good year in 2007. That is true --- with a caveat --- Ag lines are doing well, overseas markets are strong (that's what's keeping CAT numbers high) but the domestic market for construction equipment is down and I'm betting that domestic sales are down for the smaller Hp lines, too.

With this in mind --- it's not unreasonable to "hold a wet finger in the wind" in regards to how some of the smaller market share tractor companies might hold up in the brewing economic weather system that is the U.S. economy.

And who better to "kick the tires" with than a bunch of folk's who, live and breathe tractors and have invested many year's of figurin' this stuff out?!?

My $0.64 sence.

AKfish

 

[gemini5362]

Montana has been changing hands and barely staying in business in recent years from what I have read and has a very limited dealer network.


I am not sure what you mean by Montana changing hands in recent years. They have had some changes in managers basically several people moving a notch higher in management. This was brought on by the basic fact that one of the senior managing partners slipped and fell during an ice storm and died. I am not aware of the company changing hands in the last few years.

 

[gemini5362]

The Montana brand is marketed by a Korean Company "LG". They are big and into everything, and probably stable. But will they stay in the tractor business long term? They are nice looking tractors by the way. I looked at some with a friend two weeks ago. One or two models unfortunately had the fuel tank mounted right behind the right front tire. Not a good spot if you are going to leave the lawn.

I have one of the Montana tractors with the fuel tank mounted right behind the front tires. I actually thought most of the ones had it there. Especially the cab models. The tank is pretty well protected. I dont baby my 4940c at all. I have already ran a stick through the Hydraulic filter. which is underneath the tractor. I have not had a bit of problem with anything getting close to punching a hole in the fuel tank though.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Every brand has managed to conjure up a set of numbers that show them leading the way in sales. "We're #1 in sales of pink tractors sold to guys named Ralph who are left handed red heads with 3 kids or more. And soon we'll be #1 in the world. (Provided more people name their kids Ralph) "

Some brands discount the sales of construction/industrial equipment simply because they aren't doing that well in that market, or even IN that market.

Many brands direct our attention to US market share only, even though that's now just a percentage of the REAL market.

All in all, you have to weigh the facts in whole form to determine who's "the biggest". WORLDWIDE SALES of a complete product line. Advantage CAT/CNH/AGCO/DEERE, with everyone else trying hard to keep up.

What makes a strong, solvent company isn't strictly about total sales numbers. In recent years, it seems to be who ever has the clearest crystal ball. In that arena, advantage CAT/Deere.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

His overall point of being concerned about owning a product from one of the smaller brands is very valid though. Shake ups and instability in this market are the norm, companies come and go all the time. The compact market has seen nearly 10 years of constant growth and right now probably has more competitors than it can support. You will see more shake-ups like this if the market turns down.

 

[Gittyup]

Tough crowd here today. AKfish said it pretty good.

It would help diffuse things a bit if one explains themselves better. Until we know more, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about one's motives and such.

Chessy is obviously a new member. He probably needs help understanding the CUT industry and all its hairiness. Those that know should be trying to help him out by dispelling misinformation and perceptions. If there is an alterior motive, that will become evident. But, we shouldn't assume this is the case based on a few "misinformed" statements.

As to which are 1st or 2nd tier... that is subjective and depends on how one qualifies it..... and who cares really. It's like anything else. Some guys will buy a Hyundai. Others won't even consider it. And both are perfectly correct. It's their choice.

 

[Phineas7]

Good point Messick. While large foriegn manufacturers may not go out of buisiness, they may pull out of the US market; Don't you think?

As a total tractor newbie (which is probably quite common among CUT/SCUT purchasers) I was really only considering the brands that I recognized as being what I would have called 1st tier brands. I spent 13 years in the agricultural buisiness (not tractors / framing, but fruit/veg processsing). It seems that whenever I was doing work at the customer sites, the brands I saw were the big American names: Deere, Ford/NH and such. Where I live, there's no real farming, but you do see a fair bit of Kubota's around.

Until I came here, I never heard of Mahindra, Kioti, Montana or any of these others. So I don't really understand why his assumption/opinion is so offensive.

I may be wrong on this, but I'd bet that around here you'd have a much higher resale value (even accounting for higher initial cost) simply because of the perception stated by the original poster.

Sounds like some people are overly sensitive because they bought an off-brand tractor. (just kidding actually, but feel free to flame away)

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Tough crowd here today. AKfish said it pretty good.

It would help diffuse things a bit if one explains themselves better. Until we know more, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about one's motives and such.

Chessy is obviously a new member. He probably needs help understanding the CUT industry and all its hairiness. Those that know should be trying to help him out by dispelling misinformation and perceptions. If there is an alterior motive, that will become evident. But, we shouldn't assume this is the case based on a few "misinformed" statements.

As to which are 1st or 2nd tier... that is subjective and depends on how one qualifies it..... and who cares really. It's like anything else. Some guys will buy a Hyundai. Others won't even consider it. And both are perfectly correct. It's their choice.

When he first posted about this in the Farmtrac forum questions were asked. He then made this thread and more questions were asked. The OP refuses to say anything else other then if it isn't JD, Kubota or New Holland then it is a 2nd tier brand and people should think long and hard about "2nd" tier brands. When I asked on the Farmtrac thread to clarify this some he repeated the same exact thing. The OP sounds more like a troll as he refuses to discuss anything only repeat the same thing over and over.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Good point Messick. While large foriegn manufacturers may not go out of buisiness, they may pull out of the US market; Don't you think?

As a total tractor newbie (which is probably quite common among CUT/SCUT purchasers) I was really only considering the brands that I recognized as being what I would have called 1st tier brands. I spent 13 years in the agricultural buisiness (not tractors / framing, but fruit/veg processsing). It seems that whenever I was doing work at the customer sites, the brands I saw were the big American names: Deere, Ford/NH and such. Where I live, there's no real farming, but you do see a fair bit of Kubota's around.

Until I came here, I never heard of Mahindra, Kioti, Montana or any of these others. So I don't really understand why his assumption/opinion is so offensive.

I may be wrong on this, but I'd bet that around here you'd have a much higher resale value (even accounting for higher initial cost) simply because of the perception stated by the original poster.

Sounds like some people are overly sensitive because they bought an off-brand tractor. (just kidding actually, but feel free to flame away)

I run all CNH and Deere equipment. I am not overly sensitive about this topic but I am disappointed that the OP refuses to admit he is wrong. He excluded some very large brands, much larger then Kubota but he will not admit there are more top brands then the three he mentioned. He came to this thread to knock the other brands which is why he left the Farmtrac thread. He wanted more attention.

 

[Soundguy]

. Not a good spot if you are going to leave the lawn.

I have one of the Montana tractors with the fuel tank mounted right behind the front tires. I actually thought most of the ones had it there. Especially the cab models. The tank is pretty well protected. I dont baby my 4940c at all. I have already ran a stick through the Hydraulic filter. which is underneath the tractor. I have not had a bit of problem with anything getting close to punching a hole in the fuel tank though.

I'm not a big fan of low slung fuel tanks on tractors that go rough terain.. other 'ahem' major brands have done this.. then you throw in plastic tanks... another one I'm not fond of. I like a higher mounted metal tank. Not as easy to fuel.. but sticks have a hard time poking thru a metal tank mounted lust under and in front of the steering wheel.. or behind the operators seat... that said.. the entire industry is moving to 'cheap and easy' vs 'durable'.. for many reasons.. not just initial cost.

As for the rest of the discussion.. I'd just like to kick this ball out into the field. For manufacturers that do close... Legacy parts support will be influinced by total number of machines produced and in the market. Look at ford..( new holland... case new holland ).. that blue oval tractor has been thru many hands / partnerships... and you can still get darn good legacy parts support for even some of the oldest models. IE.. you can walk into a CIH dealer and either purchase of fthe shelf, or order parts for a tractor made just shy of 70 ys ago... part of that reason is shear numbers of them made... nearly a million 9n-2n-8n, .. plus more when yuo figure the hundred series.. course it helps that many units within a series shared MANY parts.. like similar ( or identical ) engine.. etc.. Other manufacturers do this as well... you still can get MH/fergy parts from a MF dealer.. and look at Allis chalmers... lots of units.. with still fairly decent parts support... Ago is far departed from those lines now.. but the maches are out there and there is a good 2ndary market to sell parts to.

soundguy

 

[Builder]

His overall point of being concerned about owning a product from one of the smaller brands is very valid though. Shake ups and instability in this market are the norm, companies come and go all the time. The compact market has seen nearly 10 years of constant growth and right now probably has more competitors than it can support. You will see more shake-ups like this if the market turns down.

"if" ?

I'm pretty sure we're there already.

 

[Soundguy]

Good point Messick. While large foriegn manufacturers may not go out of buisiness, they may pull out of the US market; Don't you think?

This is what ended me getting any more yanmar past my 1st one... Parts support for the grey markets.. while available is not nearly as robust as for the domestic models.. ( this being mostly a legal issue.. not a supply / demand issue so much.. ) and service is even harder to locate in some areas.. etc.

soundguy

 

[turbo36]

Holy Cow! some of the folks posting here (to what I think is a perfectly innocent question) are taking this very personal. Now I see the OP is banned, what did he get banned for???

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Holy Cow! some of the folks posting here (to what I think is a perfectly innocent question) are taking this very personal. Now I see the OP is banned, what did he get banned for???

A lot of things happen that we do not always see as the moderators are great about keeping up with these types of things. Why he was banned/suspended is none of our business as it is a private matter between the OP and the site.

 

[Bird]

This thread has gotten a bit more personal than it should, in some cases, but I think the topic has been covered and it's time to close this thread.