Confusee - 3rd function electric valve

[DraftHorse]

Ok, I have been looking at solonoid (solo) valves from a lot of different sources and now am totally confused.

What I want to do is add a 3rd function, not a diverter to my L3130. My plan would be to disconnect the Pb hose from my joystick and reconnect to the PB on the solo valve. Then add a hose from joystick PB to the input on the valve. This I got so far.

Questions Are:

1 - For a true 3rd function, would I need a 2 spool or 1.
2 - How would I connect the relief line from the solo so I won't interfere with regular control function.
3 - If I were looking at surplas center, what would the item be.

I'm pretty good at sparks, so the electric side of things is easy. I just am confused on what type of valve.

Thanks

Peter

 

[GuglioLS]

My plan would be to disconnect the Pb hose from my joystick and reconnect to the PB on the solo valve.
Maybe you meant to say connect the PB output FROM the joystick to the Input (P Pump) side of the solenoid (sub plate)? Hooking it up that way will give you true third function, provided you have enough flow out of your pump and you feather the joystick valve while operating the solenoid valve at the same time.

1 - For a true 3rd function, would I need a 2 spool or 1.
Well normally to operate a double acting cylinder all you need is a single spool valve (one manual lever). However since you are wanting to use a solenoid, technically the solenoid has two spools but acts like a single spool manual (non electric valve)

2 - How would I connect the relief line from the solo so I won't interfere with regular control function. I have never seen a solenoid (sub plate)with a PB output or pressure relief. It will have an input(P), an A & B (work ports) and a return to tank(T) output.

3 - If I were looking at surplus center, what would the item be.

I recommend the following from surplus center:

Solenoid
Then add the
Sub Plate
Plus two of these
Electrical Connectors

What will it be used for?

Larry

 

[DraftHorse]

Larry, thanks for the quick response.

First, from what I can see on my loader valve, there are three hoses going to the tractor. I believe these to be the pressure (P), the return (T) and the power beyond (Pb).

From what I understand, to maintain functionality of the down stream hydraulics, I believe I still would need to maintain the power beyond connection.

Another issue that arises is, can I put a Tee connection on the return (T) line of the joy stick valve and the return (T) point of the solo valve.

So what I think I need ( and correct me if I am wrong ) is this:

1 - Connect hose from Pb on joystick to P of solo valve.
2 - Connect hose from Pb out of solo back to the tractor (where the original Pb hose was connected.)
3 - Place a Tee fitting on the return (T) hose from the joystick to the tractor and connect a hose from the tee to the return (T) port on the solo.


The reason for going with a 3rd function is to give me independant control on a grapple, a bale squezze and yet to be thought of.

Peter

 

[kennyd]

Peter,
This has been discusussed LOTS of times here on TBN...
WR Long has a 3rd function kit that will fit your machine perfectly, it will cost about $500.00. You can also search for "diverter", "wr long" and "3rd function" to find lot's of reading on the subject.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Larry, thanks for the quick response.

First, from what I can see on my loader valve, there are three hoses going to the tractor. I believe these to be the pressure (P), the return (T) and the power beyond (Pb).

From what I understand, to maintain functionality of the down stream hydraulics, I believe I still would need to maintain the power beyond connection.

Another issue that arises is, can I put a Tee connection on the return (T) line of the joy stick valve and the return (T) point of the solo valve.

So what I think I need ( and correct me if I am wrong ) is this:

1 - Connect hose from Pb on joystick to P of solo valve.
2 - Connect hose from Pb out of solo back to the tractor (where the original Pb hose was connected.)
3 - Place a Tee fitting on the return (T) hose from the joystick to the tractor and connect a hose from the tee to the return (T) port on the solo.


The reason for going with a 3rd function is to give me independant control on a grapple, a bale squezze and yet to be thought of.

Peter

I think this [#3] would leave you with no PB after the valve. On mine I took off the tractor end of the PB hose and put it to the pressure port on the new valve. Then ran a line from its return side to the now vacant PB connection on the tractor. Youre just looping the PB flow, coming out of the loader valve, to the new valve and then returning it to where it could be needed downstream to run the 3ph etc.
larry

 

[RonMar]

In order to perform work you need to build pressure. a "T" allows the fluid to go 2 directions so no presure will be built. a Diverter is like a "T" that will allow fluid to go down either of 2 paths and build pressure on whatever path is flowing fluid, with one path having priority(can take all the fluid) from the other path. Here are my 3 suggestions if you are interested:

1. Add another single spool PB capable valve in circuit on the PB output line of your existing valve, sending it's PB output on downstream like your current valve does now. "T" the return from this valve into the return from your current valve so both can flow back to the resovoir.

2. Add a solenoid or manual selector valve to the work ports of one of the spools on your existing valve. This type valve has 6 ports. 2 connect to the existing work ports on your valve. Another 2 connect to the existing cylinder circuit that the spool you are connecting to would normally control. The last two connect to the new circuit you are adding. Set the valve one way, and that spool lever controls the normal circuit just like it always did and the new circuit is hydraulically locked. Switch the valve the other way and the new third function is controlled by the spool and the normal function is hydrauically locked. Here is a sample of a mechanical version Surplus Center Item Detail

3. Replace your existing loader valve with a 3 spool valve with PB capability such as this one. Surplus Center Item Detail with the PB sleeve added from the selection to the right. This in my opinion would probably be the easiest option if you can find a valve with ports compatible with your existing hose ends. Other than fabbing or modifying your existing mount, you would basically need to do no additional plumbing, other than for the work lines for the new third circuit which you will have to do any way you decide to go.

I just added a third circuit for a grapple and this is how I did it. It took me about 1 hour to install the new 3 spool valve including fabbing the new mount plate.

My .02

 

[3RRL]

I think this [#3] would leave you with no PB after the valve. On mine I took off the tractor end of the PB hose and put it to the pressure port on the new valve. Then ran a line from its return side to the now vacant PB connection on the tractor. Youre just looping the PB flow, coming out of the loader valve, to the new valve and then returning it to where it could be needed downstream to run the 3ph etc.
larry

I think your are right.
And I agree with Larry too ... I don't think the subplate for the solenoid valve has a separate power beyond sleeve, therefore the exit from the subplate should go to where the power beyond from the fel valve used to go. That will give you power to the next valve in line.

You only need to have a separate return to sump line if the valve has a power beyond sleeve in it, like your fel valve does. That's why it has a separate return to sump, but the subplate wil not have one.

Here are some photos of the solenoid valve and sub plate. The valve sits on the subplate, bolted to it.







There are four port holes on the subplate, one on each side. Two go to the hydraulic cylinder it will operate, and the other two are, one power coming in from your loader power beyond port. The other is the exit (power out) and will go to where your loader power beyond hose used to go. There are no other ports such as a power beyond on the subplate. I say this because most of them are like mine, I think.

 

[GuglioLS]

The reason for going with a 3rd function is to give me independant control on a grapple, a bale squezze and yet to be thought of.

Thats great your adding a grapple, then your good to go with all the parts I supplied links to. Connect the sub-plate (P) input to the PB out of you FEL valve. The A & B work ports to your grapple cylinder, then the T out of the solenoid sub-plate to where ever that PB hose went that you took off the FEL valve.

I would imagine you have a decent FEL valve (two spool single joystick valve) Unless your an octopus and can operate 3 levers all at once, don't go replacing it with that 3 spool 3 lever monster valve. Attaching the solenoid (sub-plate) input to the PB output from your FEL valve, along with a SPDT momentary rocker switch mounted to your FEL stick will give you the true third function you desire. SO you will be able to curl / dump / raise / lower your bucket AND operate your grapple with ONE hand.

You keep mentioning the PB output of the solenoid - keep in mind, solenoid sub-plates do not have a PB out.

This makes me wonder if your existing FEL valve really does have PB. One thing that really needs to be clarified -
Does your FEL valve really have the PB output sleeve? If it does then normally there will be 7 hoses connected to the FEL valve, not 6.

P Input from pump
A1 - work port A (Bucket Curl)
B1 - work port B (bucket Curl)
A2 - Work port A (Raise / Lower)
B2 - Work port B (Raise / Lower)
T - return to tank (with PB, the only fluid coming out of the T side of the valve is the fluid that is being displaced from a moving cylinder.
PB - fluid under pressure (when valve is in neutral or feathered) to next valve down stream.

Larry

 

[RonMar]

I would imagine you have a decent FEL valve (two spool single joystick valve) Unless your an octopus and can operate 3 levers all at once

SO you will be able to curl / dump / raise / lower your bucket AND operate your grapple with ONE hand.
Larry

Hey, I resemble that remark Actually Larry, after playing with it for the past few weeks, the 3 lever is not that bad and it all gets done with ONE hand quite easilly. It was more work getting used to having float on the first spool again after all these years than getting used to the grapple control on the third lever. I couldn't be happier with the setup and it was a snap to plumb which is why I reccomend it.

With your solenoid on the PB output of your loader valve, Can you grapple and raise-lower/curl at the same time? With them all three on the same valve, I can via the parallel galleries internal to the valve body, just like you can probably raise and curl at the same time. I think if you are raising/lowering or curling the bucket, you have no flow out the PB port(flow diverted to cylinders and return port) untill you stop these functions

 

[Mahana79]

My plan would be to disconnect the Pb hose from my joystick and reconnect to the PB on the solo valve.
Maybe you meant to say connect the PB output FROM the joystick to the Input (P Pump) side of the solenoid (sub plate)? Hooking it up that way will give you true third function, provided you have enough flow out of your pump and you feather the joystick valve while operating the solenoid valve at the same time.

1 - For a true 3rd function, would I need a 2 spool or 1.
Well normally to operate a double acting cylinder all you need is a single spool valve (one manual lever). However since you are wanting to use a solenoid, technically the solenoid has two spools but acts like a single spool manual (non electric valve)

2 - How would I connect the relief line from the solo so I won't interfere with regular control function. I have never seen a solenoid (sub plate)with a PB output or pressure relief. It will have an input(P), an A & B (work ports) and a return to tank(T) output.

3 - If I were looking at surplus center, what would the item be.

I recommend the following from surplus center:

Solenoid
Then add the
Sub Plate
Plus two of these
Electrical Connectors

What will it be used for?

Larry

that is the exact stuff i just ordered. And i had just planned on putting the subplate in series with the PB line as well. i will probalby add a 2 station subplate and 2 more valves later on for rear functions. the the control area of the L3400 is already kinda cramped so i am choosing eletrical valves over mechanical so i can remote mount the actual valves and just have switches up in the operator area.

 

[DraftHorse]

that is the exact stuff i just ordered. And i had just planned on putting the subplate in series with the PB line as well. i will probalby add a 2 station subplate and 2 more valves later on for rear functions. the the control area of the L3400 is already kinda cramped so i am choosing eletrical valves over mechanical so i can remote mount the actual valves and just have switches up in the operator area.

Let us know how it worked out and with pics. Where are you going to mount the switch ?

Peter

 

[Mahana79]

Let us know how it worked out and with pics. Where are you going to mount the switch ?

Peter

i am going to make a mount for it and attach it to the loader stick where i can actuate it with my thumb while operating the loader with out having to take my hand off the joystick. and with it plumbed in series with the powerbeyond i should be able to operater all three functions simultaniously but of course which ever function has the least resistance will get the most flow if i am understanding the definition of powerbeyond right.

 

[3RRL]

Ron,
To answer your question to Larry,
With your solenoid on the PB output of your loader valve, Can you grapple and raise-lower/curl at the same time? With them all three on the same valve, I can via the parallel galleries internal to the valve body, just like you can probably raise and curl at the same time. I think if you are raising/lowering or curling the bucket, you have no flow out the PB port(flow diverted to cylinders and return port) untill you stop these functions
Yes you can do all simultaneous movements. However, I have to "feather" my fel & bucket valve to do so.

 

[hill]

3RRL,

What'd you use for a switch in the grapple solenoid wiring.

I'm interested in making up a W.R. Long style switch in the joystick knob.

I use a knob from Eaton transmission shifters in large trucks that has two electrical switches built in to the knob in my truck to operate an exhaust brake and a 'two wheel low range' setup in my Dodge 2500 but that knob was on the order of $179. as best I recall - too expensive for tractor installs, IMO.

I figure if anyone has come up with something that works and isn't too pricey it'll be you.

 

[GuglioLS]

Are you looking for something like this?:
(Click on image for full size)


Or more complicated like this:


Larry

 

[DraftHorse]

Larry - Too Cool - I was trying to think of a joystick control that would allow me to fire my lasers and photon torpedos at my stuborn weeds !!!

 

[3RRL]

3RRL,

What'd you use for a switch in the grapple solenoid wiring.

I'm interested in making up a W.R. Long style switch in the joystick knob.

I use a knob from Eaton transmission shifters in large trucks that has two electrical switches built in to the knob in my truck to operate an exhaust brake and a 'two wheel low range' setup in my Dodge 2500 but that knob was on the order of $179. as best I recall - too expensive for tractor installs, IMO.

I figure if anyone has come up with something that works and isn't too pricey it'll be you.

I used this rocker switch that came with the WR Long valve and joystick handle. Not as fancy as Larry's but then whose is? He is always one step ahead of the game...I hate that guy.

 

[hill]

3RRL,
I saw in another thread that you'd bought the Long kit but didn't know that when I asked here.

I was looking for an alternative to the W.R. Long switch as to me that kit, and the switch kit alone are unneccessarily expensive.

What I'd like is a control that would allow for feathering the grapple much as my joystick allows such control of my bucket. The idea of a grapple that closes with a "crunch" and opens with a loud "clank" does not fit into my style of tractor operation. I like to finesse the movements of loader and hoe with such delicacy that little baby birds are not disturbed in their nests and crowds gather to marvel at my ability to remove raw eggs from the chicken coop with my backhoe, never even cracking a shell. ..

Wait.....how much of the joystick in your picture is provided by W.R. Long? I thought they only give the knob with switch for addition to existing joysticks but yours looks as if there's another switch in the ring.

 

[3RRL]

3RRL,
I saw in another thread that you'd bought the Long kit but didn't know that when I asked here.

I was looking for an alternative to the W.R. Long switch as to me that kit, and the switch kit alone are unneccessarily expensive.

What I'd like is a control that would allow for feathering the grapple much as my joystick allows such control of my bucket. The idea of a grapple that closes with a "crunch" and opens with a loud "clank" does not fit into my style of tractor operation. I like to finesse the movements of loader and hoe with such delicacy that little baby birds are not disturbed in their nests and crowds gather to marvel at my ability to remove raw eggs from the chicken coop with my backhoe, never even cracking a shell. ..

Wait.....how much of the joystick in your picture is provided by W.R. Long? I thought they only give the knob with switch for addition to existing joysticks but yours looks as if there's another switch in the ring.

Hill, a couple things...
First, the WR Long kit has the rocker switch in their joystick handle and tube, which slides over the existing joystick extension. It's all included. I took off the handle that came with the loader and put that on. Had I known better at the time, I could have bought a rocker switch or other switches to stick into my existing joystick handle. It had pockets for buttons and switches, but I did not know any better at the time.

Here it is and you can clearly see it had pockets to work with ...duh. I liked it a lot better than the WR Long handle.



The other issue about wanting to control the grapple like you describe is not available with an electric solenoid valve. They are either open full or closed. What some guys have done is use smaller diameter hose to slow the movement down. I you want the kind of control you say, you might consider a regular valve that can be "feathered". But that would be ungainly IMO. In reality, the switch is super easy to use.

On the other hand, I have no problems with the speed of the grapple closing or opening. I like the faster speed it moves using Ø3/8" hoses like I did. There is very little noise in reality. And in my world, after 200 hours of use, I have no need to use the soft clamp. Doubt that I ever will?

 

[kennyd]

The other issue about wanting to control the grapple like you describe is not available with an electric solenoid valve. They are either open full or closed. What some guys have done is use smaller diameter hose to slow the movement down. I you want the kind of control you say, you might consider a regular valve that can be "feathered". But that would be ungainly IMO. In reality, the switch is super easy to use.

Rob is correct, but I would like to add on other option to the mix...If you use an electric diverter, instead of the solenoid valve, than you can "feather" the grapple just as you would the curl on the bucket. Cost wise they are about the same $$$.

As for the switch on the joystick, well, your either gonna have to pay the piper or make your own...I paid $170 for mine from JD, it's for a 110TLB and I fell in love with the way it felt and whipped out the CC in a week moment-sometimes I have all the will power of a heroin addict