Backhoe Confusion about 3rd function

[Cgray1911]

Hello All,

I am hoping someone may can help me understand what I actually need to add a grapple. I have a 2016 Mahindra 1533 and I ordered it with a backhoe. It's pretty straight forward if you do not have the backhoe I know. I am just a little confused on what I need (true 3rd function valve?) do I route my new hyd lines to the rear where my backhoe lines are plumbed? For the backhoe there are 3 connection behind the seat. If I recall 1PB, 1Pressure and a return.. I am going with the EA Grapple. I appreciate any advice.

 

[RNeumann]

Most valves have PB in and PB out. The idea would be to continue on with what is there- loader to BH to third function.
The true third function is an electric over hydraulic valve and the kit that EA sells has a good valve but is not rated for continuous use. If you need a valve rated for continuous use check out the one from CA Attachments. Idaho Implement and others sell that brand.
EA has a few videos that walk you through the install of the third function. CA's is below. If you have more questions I have called CA and had very good results. I hear EA is good as well.
One Touch Kit for Tractor Loaders - Installation - YouTube
This will be a good project but not overly complex. The hose from the BH PB to the third function valve may be custom length since the normal PB for the third function would come off the loader control.

 

[Cgray1911]

RNeumann,
I appreciate the response and will give them a call. Hope to get this project underway as soon as I can.

 

[LD1]

Do you understand the difference between a diverter valve for a grapple, and a true 3rd function?

While neither is complicated or hard, a diverter is usually a little cheaper and little easier to install. If you dont know the differences, there are plenty of threads here talking about the differences as well as google.

 

[Cgray1911]

LD1,

I am fairly certain the main difference is you lose the ability to curl while open or closing the grapple. That would be a feature I would like to keep that feature via 3rd function electric valve. I was really hoping since I had an available circuit in the rear for my bh connections I may be able to use that but how to control. I am getting clearer as I read. I'm not Scientology clear yet, but I'm at least able to talk a bit better to EA or CA about my setup. I appreciate you guys taking the time to help a newbie out.

 

[RNeumann]

You are correct with regards to function and having a true third function is a nicer IMHO

 

[LD1]

How is the backhoe circuit set up? is it a rear remote that the backhoe hooks to that is controlled via a lever? Or is it just a set of ports that have continuous flow and you have to loop the hoses back to eachother when the hoe is off.

If its a remote that already has a valve, that is your control. But rear remote controls are not always in the most convenient spot for loader work. Most people want a push button on the joystick. Thus the 3rd function or diverter. Which is the valve itself, controlled with the bushbutton.

If all you are looking for is a source for hydraulics for that valve, just pull it off the power beyond of the loader, and tie into the system that way.

 

[EverythingAttachments]

The true third function is an electric over hydraulic valve and the kit that EA sells has a good valve but is not rated for continuous use. If you need a valve rated for continuous use check out the one from CA Attachments. Idaho Implement and others sell that brand.
EA has a few videos that walk you through the install of the third function. CA's is below. If you have more questions I have called CA and had very good results. I hear EA is good as well.
One Touch Kit for Tractor Loaders - Installation - YouTube
This will be a good project but not overly complex. The hose from the BH PB to the third function valve may be custom length since the normal PB for the third function would come off the loader control.

The CA kit and the WR Long kit both consist of a DO3 valve. We have access to either, but we offer WR Long because they have so many more tractors/loaders on file than CA.
You CAN use either for continuous flow applications, but it's not advised. They use electric switches that can fail when held constantly.
This advice was given to me by Nelson Long. He says he knows people use them for continuous flow applications, but it's not the best idea.
Travis

 

[EverythingAttachments]

I verified this with CA, and their feelings are the same as Nelson's.
Travis

 

[RNeumann]

This is who I spoke to regarding the valve......it's the valve manufacture-

Hyvair Corp. - Solenoid Actuated Valves

This is the quote from WR Long about not using continually (on EA website)-

3rd function auxiliary hydraulic kits for all brands of tractors and loaders

The hold current on that valve is 2.5amps. If the switch can't handle that continually it's time for a little relay. Also note the different part numbers that correspond with different flow rates.

http://hyvair.com/pdf/d03solenoid.pdf

Here is what I assume is the grip (with switches in question)-

Rated for 5a @ 24v continuous

Scorpion Technologies LTD. - X-Series Specifications


Probably not a big deal since most will never use an auger or something else that requires constant flow.

BTW- that grip is about $100 and the valve is also about $100. If someone was willing to have the hoses made, run a little wire and make 2 mounting brackets you could save some $.

 

[RNeumann]

Interesting EA edited post and removed reference to very small holes in the DO3 valve plate and over heating.......
It would be interesting to see the flow rate of the valve they are selling.

 

[EverythingAttachments]

Interesting EA edited post and removed reference to very small holes in the DO3 valve plate and over heating.......
It would be interesting to see the flow rate of the valve they are selling.

It's a DO3; the same one that CA offers in their kit. If the tractor has above 15gpm on the aux. circuit, you need to upgrade to a DO5.
Ted said you shouldn't worry about using it 15 minute or so intervals for digging holes or other applications that aren't strenuous, but it still isn't mfg. recommended.
He gave a technical statement about the magnets in the valve and the manner of actuation, but I didn't comprehend enough to repeat it.
Travis

 

[RNeumann]

It's a DO3; the same one that CA offers in their kit. If the tractor has above 15gpm on the aux. circuit, you need to upgrade to a DO5.
Ted said you shouldn't worry about using it 15 minute or so intervals for digging holes or other applications that aren't strenuous, but it still isn't mfg. recommended.
He gave a technical statement about the magnets in the valve and the manner of actuation, but I didn't comprehend enough to repeat it.
Travis

The technical aspect is with regards to the solenoid (like a heavy duty electrical switch) that is used to move the valve from position to position. That is the part Hyvair (valve manufacture) states is designed for continuous use.
A temporary duty solenoid is like the one used for starting a car- just a few seconds now and then. A continuous duty solenoid is what I am told this has.
Maybe Hyvair has changed the solenoid or the failures were with a different model valve?
I'm not sure where the 15gpm spec came from. The valve manufacture literature (link above) shows 8,17,21 and 26 approx. gpm models. Could the failures also come from the 8 gpm models on larger machines? Maybe to save space or cost?

 

[EverythingAttachments]

Could the failures also come from the 8 gpm models on larger machines? Maybe to save space or cost?

There are no reported failures to my knowledge. This is simply stating what could happen.
Nelson and Ted are really the most knowledgeable hydraulics people I know. JJ is the TBN hydraulics guru. Too bad there's no tagging on TBN like on Facebook!
Travis

 

[LD1]

Should be upgrading to the D05 anytime you go over 8gpm. At least thats the standard in industrial applications when designing a hydraulic circuit.

Either way, I wouldnt choose a stackable type valve for a tractor.

 

[RNeumann]

There are no reported failures to my knowledge. This is simply stating what could happen.
Nelson and Ted are really the most knowledgeable hydraulics people I know. JJ is the TBN hydraulics guru. Too bad there's no tagging on TBN like on Facebook!
Travis

This is crazy! First you post that the product fails with continuous use- detailing how and why it does so. Then you delete that part of your post. Now you state their have been no failures. I would avoid "replying" to posts to save readers for having to reread what was already written. This though, is a new one to me. I guess I'll have to now.

Who cares if it fails with continuous use? Your websites says it will (link above). As I said 99% of folks will never do that type of operation with the third function. Which means this conversation was over before it started. Instead you post, then change the post, and lay the issue with valve and switch manufacture. You offer names of what I assume are highly qualified folks. Unfortunately none of the names are the valve or switch manufactures.
Where are you hoping this thread goes? EA was given credit for offering a good product and good service. The comments were from your website regarding not using continually (backed up with my own experience with a WR Long 3rd function that failed from continuous use- dealer in Oregon had it in his shop).

 

[EverythingAttachments]

This is crazy! First you post that the product fails with continuous use- detailing how and why it does so. Then you delete that part of your post. Now you state their have been no failures. I would avoid "replying" to posts to save readers for having to reread what was already written. This though, is a new one to me. I guess I'll have to now.

Who cares if it fails with continuous use? Your websites says it will (link above). As I said 99% of folks will never do that type of operation with the third function. Which means this conversation was over before it started. Instead you post, then change the post, and lay the issue with valve and switch manufacture. You offer names of what I assume are highly qualified folks. Unfortunately none of the names are the valve or switch manufactures.
Where are you hoping this thread goes? EA was given credit for offering a good product and good service. The comments were from your website regarding not using continually (backed up with my own experience with a WR Long 3rd function that failed from continuous use- dealer in Oregon had it in his shop).

WR Long's phone number is 252-823-4570 if you would like to talk to Nelson personally.
He's a really nice guy and wouldn't steer anyone wrong. Kinda like us!
Have a wonderful day.
Travis

 

[Big Chief]

I just added a grapple. You have to just understand how the power beyond Plumbing works I used a single spool valve and premade hoses and fittings from the surplus center

 

[RNeumann]

Looks good! The brackets etc look like you took your time and did it right. I can't quite see the way you attached the hoses at the loader cross arm. Some type of nice clamp...?

 

[tkevan]

View attachment 494463I just added a grapple. You have to just understand how the power beyond Plumbing works I used a single spool valve and premade hoses and fittings from the surplus center
View attachment 494462

Not to get off topic, but I would use caution with the placement of your hooks. Looks like they're mounted a good bit outside the arms. Careful not to twist your loader.

As to the OP. I used this setup for my 4025.
Construction Attachments Dedicated Third Function Hydraulic Valve Kit, Less Hoses, Up To 14 GPM Had my local hose shop fab what I needed and saved a couple of hundred dollars.