Snow Conn Power Outages

[Richard001]

Yes I'm familiar with ConEd.

When our company (Not going to say on here you can probably guess) was trying to get approvals to build (or contract the build of) a very large wind farm in Oklahoma, one of the big challenges was getting power to the major city where the energy would be consumed via a large tie line. I don't remember the length but was in the meetings where the engineers expressed this as being one of the things they would have to figure out. Our company is predominately coal and the engineers said that with coal transporting that distance wouldn't be an issue. Don't remember the details of it but perhaps because of the MW out put of wind compared to coal was the difference. It turned out that they didn't get all states to approve the wind farm so it became a moot point. That farm was not built.

They are now building (or Invenergy is) the largest wind farm in North America 1.5MW. Our company has the largest transmission & Distribution network in North America. We are relatively newish to wind/solar but have been doing power for a minute.

Of course I would expect anyone who is working for a Wind/Solar energy company to be pro renewables and so am I to a point. But my concern is there is too much hype about renewables being the savior and people acting like we have the battery and other means of grid reliability figured out when we don't. If we did, you wouldn't see what happened in Texas and what happens in CAL.

Let's not try and paint a rosy picture that doesn't exist, at least not yet. We have battery technology deployed and I've heard it is not going great from the sites we have them in. Though that was three years ago and I realize things are changing rapidly.

Our main supplier of electricity here in MN land, Xcel Energy, AKA NSP, has been pushing to have the users pay for the extra cost of building transmission lines to private builders of some wind farms. I fail to understand why the users should pay to have transmission line set up so that the private company can sell their electricity for a profit without the expense of putting up the lines.

So far, the MN PUC has blocked this attempt, but I'm sure that in the future, it will happen.

 

[Yander]

It isn't unusual for an energy company to do what they call normal rate recovery on major capital expenses and infrastructure. I could see why it would bother a fellow if the wind farms were something that wasn't even wanted or needed by the consumer in the first place. It would bother me too.

Again, the hype of renewables saving the planet puts pressure on everyone to make things like that happen. Some people are bought in and will sign up for energy that is produced by renewable energy and will pay the extra $$. Others are like, just give me the cheapest utility rates I can get. Those are the people who hate the wind farm being forced down their throat and being forced to pay extra for it.

 

[Joel/ak]

I'm not against alternative sources but this country under this so called leadership is cutting it's face to spite the nose.

We are not ready to go green. Pretty dam sad when we are having rolling black outs in this great country when the solution is right in front of us.

 

[3Ts]

About the grid using batteries to store the electricity from wind/solar farms, as I understand it, it doesn't matter as to the battery technology, it's all stored as DC. (Actually chemical form which can convert to DC electricity.) The Grid itself is AC. Transformers work well with AC but not with DC. How are the batteries converted to AC (which has to be pure sine wave) in Mega watt quantities?

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Big inverters. I've worked on multi MW electic motor drives. Similar thing

 

[rScotty]

I'm not against alternative sources but this country under this so called leadership is cutting it's face to spite the nose.

We are not ready to go green. Pretty dam sad when we are having rolling black outs in this great country when the solution is right in front of us.

I guess I don't see the solution that is "right in front of us". If you mean coal, we tried coal for 100 years - but there was no way to clean up the air. If you are over 70, you remember the way that smog stank and lay as a pall over every city, in every valley, and sometimes whole sections of a state. In fact, it was efforts at smog control that started the whole "green" movement.... we talk about climate change a lot now, but that came into the green movement decades later.

The wasy we got into this divisive mess is one of those recent pieces of history that is so obvious to people who lived at the time that it keeps being overlooked.

As for batteries and storing energy, batteries are only one way to store energy. Not the only way, just the easiest - so its the first thing people think of. The solution is to store it some other say. The way to solve a problem is when something doesn't work; try something else.

rScotty

 

[Yander]

I guess I don't see the solution that is "right in front of us". If you mean coal, we tried coal for 100 years - but there was no way to clean up the air. If you are over 70, you remember the way that smog stank and lay as a pall over every city, in every valley, and sometimes whole sections of a state. In fact, it was efforts at smog control that started the whole "green" movement.... we talk about climate change a lot now, but that came into the green movement decades later.

The wasy we got into this divisive mess is one of those recent pieces of history that is so obvious to people who lived at the time that it keeps being overlooked.

As for batteries and storing energy, batteries are only one way to store energy. Not the only way, just the easiest - so its the first thing people think of. The solution is to store it some other say. The way to solve a problem is when something doesn't work; try something else.

rScotty

We have scrubbers on all of our units now that have all but eliminated a lot of what you describe. But it doesn't matter. The media controls this country now and people will believe what they tell them to believe. Not a lot of folks on this site, but most other people. People do not do their own research or learning any more. Just believe the sound bit.

Scrubber myths and realities

Don`t let common misperceptions about flue gas desulfurization systems bias a realistic appraisal of this capable control technology

www.power-eng.com

 

[Yander]

Listen to this, and send it to everyone you know to watch. This guy WAS an advocate for wind/solar.

 

[Hay Dude]

If that video was allowed to be shown to High School and college aged kids, we would be living in a much different and much improved world.

 

[rScotty]

We have scrubbers on all of our units now that have all but eliminated a lot of what you describe. But it doesn't matter. The media controls this country now and people will believe what they tell them to believe. Not a lot of folks on this site, but most other people. People do not do their own research or learning any more. Just believe the sound bit.

Scrubber myths and realities

Don`t let common misperceptions about flue gas desulfurization systems bias a realistic appraisal of this capable control technology

www.power-eng.com

Yes! I remember the smokestack "scrubber wars"! In the 70s and 80s I knew people involved with steel production and the scrubbers at Crucible Steel in Syracuse. Another friend ran those plants. That was the era when Crucible Steel was bought out by Colt Industries - a company notorious for taking a hard line on profit.

Crucible had installed modern scrubbers in the Syracuse plant but they didn't work to spec. And when they were scrubbing to spec, the cost of the energy inefficiency ate up the profits.

So everytime I visited, my friends were always in some angry battle with either gov't regulators, their Colt Ind. owners, or the local town people and local officials - all of whom had different ideas about scrubbing.

I got to watch from the sidelines because I didn't have a dog in that fight. And noticed two things:
1. Most of the time the scrubbers were "down" for one reason or another - but the steel production never was.
So the air quality didn't change much.
2. The whole subject of smokestack scrubbing changed from an engineering problem into a political divide that still existed 30 years later. I'm guessing it still does.

rScotty

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Maybe what he means is that it’s power that can’t be created & stored 24/7 without millions spent on batteries to store the energy? A FF plant can make power day/night, wind or no wind.

Some don’t realize that solar panels are not the end of the expenditure. Huge expensive batteries are part of the expense and the mining & manufacturing required to build them is an environmental mess.

We all have to admit that when it comes to wind/solar, we are not being given the downside of them.

We are only given the downside of Fossil and the upside of wind/solar.

That skews the thinking of the young uns a bit…..’specially at the ballot box.

Plus, the rock in their craw is that solar panels are not recyclable. At least, not cost effective to recycle. Costs more than they're worth. Kinda like them islands of plastic bottles floating in the oceans. They were sent off at one time to be recycled, but ended up creating a new land mass. I always wondered if I could claim one of them bottle islands. Remember, Fukushima is putting out just as much as it ever was, but, they don't want to discuss that one. I'm all for gas, diesel, coal, not wasting money like solyndra or whatever it was. Lot of people could be operating drilling rigs, building a Canadian pipeline, plus all the industry that supports them. Jimmy Carter made a lasting impression on me. People must love self punishment. The kind of men that let's a woman tie them up and stripe them with a horse whip until they urinate in their adult diapers. Then they are broke down in a crumpled, crying pile, and experience an identity crisis. Searching the 70 pronouns for the one that suits them. Then they raise their hand, IM WITH HER !!! in honor of Hillary.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Yes! I remember the smokestack "scrubber wars"! In the 70s and 80s I knew people involved with steel production and the scrubbers at Crucible Steel in Syracuse. Another friend ran those plants. That was the era when Crucible Steel was bought out by Colt Industries - a company notorious for taking a hard line on profit.

Crucible had installed modern scrubbers in the Syracuse plant but they didn't work to spec. And when they were scrubbing to spec, the cost of the energy inefficiency ate up the profits.

So everytime I visited, my friends were always in some angry battle with either gov't regulators, their Colt Ind. owners, or the local town people and local officials - all of whom had different ideas about scrubbing.

I got to watch from the sidelines because I didn't have a dog in that fight. And noticed two things:
1. Most of the time the scrubbers were "down" for one reason or another - but the steel production never was.
So the air quality didn't change much.
2. The whole subject of smokestack scrubbing changed from an engineering problem into a political divide that still existed 30 years later. I'm guessing it still does.

rScotty

Nope, steel is produced in non liberal countries now. A little bit is made here. China has our scrap piled as big as a mountain, and 15 miles long. That's just one pile. Our jobs are over there with it.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I'm pretty saddened by the deaths and suffering I'm hearing about from this cold front that is just starting to leave my area.

FWIW, in my neck of the woods in Minnesota, it is commonplace to have three heat sources in homes. Boiler, heat pump, or forced air, and then the old standby when power is out, fireplaces.

Because nobody wants their pipes to freeze and the weather people are getting is commonplace up here (although we typically get our big snow falls in the beginning and end of winter as our winters are too cold for real heavy snow)

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I'm not sure what you mean by wind/solar energy doesn't transport well. It is no different that electricity produced by any other source. The reason solar fields are distributed is to produce power where it is needed and increase grid stability and reliability. BTW I am an engineer for the second largest solar asset owner in North America. www.conedceb.com

Minnesota legislated something like 30-35% of our power come from alt sources by something like 2030 or 2035. Apart from screwing little power co-ops like mine, reading through Minnesota Power's 10K (who actually generates the power for my co-op), they don't even bother knocking the snow off of the solar panels in the winter as the power they produce is so negligible. Even so, panels are deemed more cost-effective than wind due to the special needs of our local climate.

 

[rScotty]

About the grid using batteries to store the electricity from wind/solar farms, as I understand it, it doesn't matter as to the battery technology, it's all stored as DC. (Actually chemical form which can convert to DC electricity.) The Grid itself is AC. Transformers work well with AC but not with DC. How are the batteries converted to AC (which has to be pure sine wave) in Mega watt quantities?

That's right. Batteries are the technical popular rage right now,& work OK storing energy for things that need to move around - like cars or flashlights. Or even small stationary systems like houses.
But as folks point out, batteries aren't a good answer for large power plants. They are sexy for scientists and investors, just not efficient. And not very "green" anyway.
We may have to return to simpler solutions.

Nuclear energy plants have the same problems as solar but in reverse. Unlike fossil fuel plants, it's not easy to turn a reactor down for short periods of time - like at night when people use less energy - so they have always needed a way to store their extra energy too.

rScotty

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

We have scrubbers on all of our units now that have all but eliminated a lot of what you describe. But it doesn't matter. The media controls this country now and people will believe what they tell them to believe. Not a lot of folks on this site, but most other people. People do not do their own research or learning any more. Just believe the sound bit.

Scrubber myths and realities

Don`t let common misperceptions about flue gas desulfurization systems bias a realistic appraisal of this capable control technology

www.power-eng.com

Read the whole article in the link.
As a former "SO2 scrubber operator" (yes actual job title) I observed that the pollution control equipment worked quit well for SO2, but the other problem was mercury emisions. Didn't see that mentioned in the article.

 

[cqaigy2]

Not to mention all the slaves in Africa getting beat, whipped, and killed mining cobalt, for maybe a dollar a day. Even though other places have cobalt, it's a lot cheaper from Africa. If you have a cell phone, you basically support that cobalt mining. Funny how human rights activists only fight for certain people's rights. I guess some people are more equal than others. Just like them women's rights activists. You never see them in Muslim countries protesting female circumsision. Think of the young women. A couple of men grab them on the street and hold legs spread while some old village lady trims it all off with a sharp rock or old rusty razor blade from a safety razor. Barbaric. They ain't over there protesting because we get oil and lithium from there.

I beg to differ, you're just not looking in the right places to see where and what human rights activist are fighting against. It's not big money in that so we don't see it, you don't get rich doing it so nobodies interested.

There is big money in exploiting people and lands for their resources and reselling it for a profit so our stock holders are happy.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I beg to differ, you're just not looking in the right places to see where and what human rights activist are fighting against. It's not big money in that so we don't see it, you don't get rich doing it so nobodies interested.

There is big money in exploiting people and lands for their resources and reselling it for a profit so our stock holders are happy.

I don't care what activates them. I've been to Africa, Mexico, Central America, lived there. Go burn down towns in other countries, see how it works out for them. As far as I can see, not much to complain about here.

 

[Muhammad]

Political posts can be made in the front porch.