Contract Flailing
- Thread starter bullwest
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Farmwithjunk
Super Member
You're right....they should be tossed on the fire....as they are WORTHLESS in my line of work.
clemsonfor
Super Member
HAHAHa I just had to chuckle to myself. Thats funny. Im with you FWJ i really dont understand how a guy mowing his estate is trying to tell a business man whos main line of work is contract/ROW mowing what will work the best for him, as well as what this new guy needs to buy. Clearly if they would make you competitive and return a higher profit margin you as well as someone else would use them!
Its like this, you have a dilivery business, just local stuff, you deliver files folders parts what ever someone will pay you to deliver. You run 2 trucks a regular cap longbed US made one and a Tahoe. You get this work done with these trucks at a decent return. Why would you buy an escalade and a cadilac truck as the next fleet trucks? In this case all they do is cost more, they dont help you do the job better or faster. It the flail mower instance there worse, they cost more and do the job slower! IT DONT make financial sense.
leonz
Super Member
Flail mowers are not worthless, they are a very valuable type of multi purpose mower.
Using the Diamond triple gang flail mower as an example one model has 21 feet of ACTUAL cutting width just in one row of grass slicer knives in actual cutting edge length where the following 2 to 3 rows of knives overlap the total cutting edge is greater than 21 feet in length NOT including the un-exposed knive edges on the opposite side of the individual knive, the triple gang mower may have 63 to 84 feet of useable cutting edge with the knive count using a three or four row rotor per mower giving the end user over 168 feet of useable cutting edge versus the available 10 feet five inches of total ACTUAL cutting edge surface per rotation of the typical rotary cutter blades in that width of cut.
Using the Diamond triple gang flail mower as an example one model has 21 feet of ACTUAL cutting width just in one row of grass slicer knives in actual cutting edge length where the following 2 to 3 rows of knives overlap the total cutting edge is greater than 21 feet in length NOT including the un-exposed knive edges on the opposite side of the individual knive, the triple gang mower may have 63 to 84 feet of useable cutting edge with the knive count using a three or four row rotor per mower giving the end user over 168 feet of useable cutting edge versus the available 10 feet five inches of total ACTUAL cutting edge surface per rotation of the typical rotary cutter blades in that width of cut.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
Apparently your reading skills have left the building.... I said WORTHLESS IN MY LINE OF WORK. Selectively misquoting doesn't win debates....It merely points out your tendency muddy up the pool with misinformation.
Your explanation is why a flail requires more HP (and therefor more fuel, a larger and more expensive tractor to pull the same width of mower) to do the same job as a much less expensive, far MORE durable rotary mower. Hundreds more moving parts to do the same job.....Even SOUNDS like a mistake.
Bottom line is, flail mowers were FAIL mowers when put to the test in the harsh condition we mow in. We don't mow manicured lawns that get cut every week. We're talking mowing in weeds higher that the tractors hood, chalk full of hidden treasures like car tires, rusty exhaust systems, pieces of road signs, and a laundry list of other roadside debris. When we were demoing the flails, we were forced to stop several times an hour to do damage assessment and repairs. I have Bush Hog bat wings that go an entire season with nothing more in the line of repairs than the occasional touch up on blades. And, as I stated previously, end results were no different. You can talk in circles like a 2-bit politician until the cows come home and it does NOT change the FACT that flail mowers are the worst possible choice in many cases.
Again, cost involved with outfitting mowing rigs to do the volume of work I do is well over 3 times as much with flails as it is for rotaries. Bigger, more expensive tractors, more fuel, less work accomplished per operator due to slower ground speeds all equate to tremendously higher operating cost. Down time wasn't even comparable. The money available to do this work is relatively fixed by competitive bidding. I sure couldn't demand 3 times more for our mowing just because I made a poor choice in equipment. So I make it a point to NOT make poor choices. Apparently you skipped business 101.....Operating at a dead loss with the wrong equipment is no way to run a business. I would not and COULD win ANY of the contracts I currently have with a dead expense as you suggest.
Unlike yourself, I don't tow a tiny little mower around behind a lawn tractor. Obviously you have NO....NONE....ZERO concept of what I do for a living. And just as obvious, you have no concept of what it takes to do my job....In the past few postings, you've done more harm to the flail mower industry that you'll ever realize.
Keep it up! I'm always game for a laugh!
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Farmwithjunk
Super Member
There are situations where flails are the mower of choice. Obviously Leon believes that to be EVERY situation.....It doesn't take the proverbial "rocket scientist" to understand when someone says their idea is the above all/end all answer to EVERYTHING, they're EITHER attempting to mislead everyone else, OR they have been grossly misled themselves.
As I have already made my point, we TRIED flail mowers. As I said already, I was hoping to use them as a selling point in my business. I gave them the benefit of doubt by allowing several opportunities, even using one of the most respected (and expensive) brands of extreme duty flail mowers on the market. They failed miserably. Rotary mowers have excelled. Initial cost as well as expected maint. cost spread over the expected life span of each, and the rotaries blew the flail mowers out of the picture. What more of an explanation does this take?
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leonz
Super Member
About flail mowers in general,
When we had our Ford Jubilee with the 7 foot John Deere finish flail mower with a three row rotor we had no issues other than cleaning the radiator screen and knocking down overgrown 10 foot high pasture brush.
I can and will tell you I did not fail Business 101 in pursuit of my accounting degree.
Anyone dealing with contract mowing with a municipality is already behind the eight ball because of possible competition, bonding issues, umbrella liability costs, operator training time, hourly wages per operator, transit times between locations, required road sign postings warning the driver that mowing is occuring, required operator training to comply with state insurance issues, possible and evident vandalism, and overhead costs.
Comparing contract mowing to a package delivery service is an extremely poor comparison.
If you are saddled with bidding a per day cost of mowing this involves
governmental accounting dealing with a revenue stream that is shrinking and is suffering uneven revenue disbursments from the local or state treasury
which depends on quarterly payment from sales, fuel and income taxes as well as any available federal grant money which include many more issues not just the type of mower or the knive used including the actual municipality having limited funds to pay or pursue the task of mowing the right of way.
If the original poster is contract mowing with individuals the normal state of affairs involves a per acre charge annually which is what I must assume he is referring to as he has not stated otherwise.
When we had our Ford Jubilee with the 7 foot John Deere finish flail mower with a three row rotor we had no issues other than cleaning the radiator screen and knocking down overgrown 10 foot high pasture brush.
I can and will tell you I did not fail Business 101 in pursuit of my accounting degree.
Anyone dealing with contract mowing with a municipality is already behind the eight ball because of possible competition, bonding issues, umbrella liability costs, operator training time, hourly wages per operator, transit times between locations, required road sign postings warning the driver that mowing is occuring, required operator training to comply with state insurance issues, possible and evident vandalism, and overhead costs.
Comparing contract mowing to a package delivery service is an extremely poor comparison.
If you are saddled with bidding a per day cost of mowing this involves
governmental accounting dealing with a revenue stream that is shrinking and is suffering uneven revenue disbursments from the local or state treasury
which depends on quarterly payment from sales, fuel and income taxes as well as any available federal grant money which include many more issues not just the type of mower or the knive used including the actual municipality having limited funds to pay or pursue the task of mowing the right of way.
If the original poster is contract mowing with individuals the normal state of affairs involves a per acre charge annually which is what I must assume he is referring to as he has not stated otherwise.
mooseracing
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2010
- Messages
- 111
We have a few contractors try to run flails. The main problem we have with them, they don't do trees and brush. You never know what is going to be in the ROW until you get there. The contractors would go around it and then I would have to go out and clean it up. Not my decision.
From a ROW prospective, I wouldn't use the. If you are mowing ROW on the freeway where there is no trees I could see it. But that is the only place I see it for business use.
From a ROW prospective, I wouldn't use the. If you are mowing ROW on the freeway where there is no trees I could see it. But that is the only place I see it for business use.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
The Achillies heel for flails from my perspective, above and beyond their disproportionately high operating cost was rocks. More specifically, rock outcroppings that were frequently covered with weeds. Rotaries make noise when we hit 'em. But they soldier on. Flails self destructed.
Next issue is unit width. With the bat wing rotaries, we often need to cycle the decks (fold/unfold) 8 or 10 times an hour due to bridge abutments, trees, ditches, guard rails, ect...In order to get the ability to fold a flail mower, we had to go with a rear mounted 8'er and then add on side mounted wing mowers. With the complicated (relative to pto driven bat wings) nature of hydraulic side mowers, the cost went through the roof. It was suggested earlier in the thread that we could use wider fixed width flail. Not even remotely possible....
Bottom line, for my purposes, flails were not practical, affordable (for a litany of reasons), durable, or reliable enough to give them even a moments consideration. They were the WORST POSSIBLE choice.
Even in these tough economic times, my business has thrived. We won our first major contract 3-1/2 years ago, employing 11 people in that first season. Currently I have 39 on the payroll. Plans are to expand even further next year. I'm of the belief that making a successful run in these times while others in the same industry are struggling is something of an indication I'm doing things at least a little bit right. If someone has a suggestion that will improve bottom lines, I'm all ears. On the other hand, when I hear someone from outside the industry harping on ideas I already know to be failures in waiting, I'm gonna call a spade a spade....
I like the idea of a flail mower, and in fact I bought a Caroni and I'm happy with it for my personal usage. But I don't understand how you can make any kind of generalization that flail mowers somehow automatically have sharper blades than rotary mowers. I mean doesn't that depend on how one grinds the steel as opposed to what type of machine the steel is mounted on?
xtn