copper pistons

[daugen]

2014 Ferrari 458 Speciale First Drive - Motor Trend

this is a little far astray, but some interesting new high performance ideas, two of which puzzled me.
But I'm sure one of you know.

Ferrari even went so far as to add copper to the pistons, making them conduct and dissipate heat more efficiently while increasing tensile strength.


How does adding a super soft metal like copper increase tensile strength? I understand the heat dissipation, think Revere Ware pan, but clearly my metallurgy understanding is woeful.
and my chemistry isn't much better:

next-gen HT2 brake discs with added silicon

Now silica I understand in a brake pad, but silicon(e)? Ok, I looked it up, and they are all related.
Silicon is the basis of the ubiquitous synthetic silicon-based polymers called silicones.

so we have something that is both very hard and used in industrial abrasives and also something that can be extremely slippery.
I guess that's why the chemists get the big bucks, but I could not imagine why anyone would use what I knew as drawer and window lube in the chemical compounding for brake pads. Must be the industrial grit relative.
When brakes become a ten grand option, or way more than that in certain cars, you have to wonder what justifies that.

The Brembo brakes standard in front in my XTS are some of the best I've ever had. Serious bite without the vibration or grinding.

Tractor brakes sure are simple, aren't they? they probably still use something good like asbestos...

 

[schmism]

Tractor brakes sure are simple, aren't they? they probably still use something good like asbestos...

most modern (last 20 years) wet disc type brakes use paper based fiction material.

 

[sd455dan]

I do know that some engines built in the very early days of internal combustion engines actually used steel , but when pushed- the pistons dome would deform due to the heat.

When aluminum was first tried -many were worried that the pistons would soften and melt, but the Aluminum transferred heat so much quicker that the softening became a non issue...

Another little tid- bit concerning diesel engines was the addition of a third compression ring, which I assumed was for the main purpose of reducing leakage during combustion,

It is actually more useful for heat transfer.... The dome gets the hottest and the major means of dissipating the heat- out of the piston is thru the rings to the cylinder walls and into the coolant.

A small article i read recently described how some marine diesel engine designers were derided- for not staying up with the times and asked why they couldn't make a 2 compression ring piston work-

So the company tooled up some new 2 compression ringed pistons, and tested their established design of marine diesel engine with the (new piston and rings) the result was over heated pistons in a very short order....

I guess that's why I have yet to see a diesel engine design employing only 2 compression rings... but do see engines with oil cooling jets...

 

[daugen]

the major means of dissipating the heat- out of the piston is thru the rings to the cylinder walls and into the coolant.

I never knew that, assumed heat went more vertical and was water cooled in the combustion area. But those rings sure touch all the time, so this makes sense to me.

 

[Stick895]

I would imagine that they add enough copper to aid heat transfer but not enough to significantly affect the strength of the metal somehow.

 

[LD1]

I don't fully understand all of metallurgy either. But alloys of metals usually end up with better properties.

Like solder for example. Tin and lead have a specific melting point. When combined, it is higher than either.

Or adding softer nickel to steel to get stainless alloys that is harder.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Or like mixing sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid together to dissolve gold when neither of them alone will affect it.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Or like mixing sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid together to dissolve gold when neither of them alone will affect it.

If you got gold that needs to be destroyed, I'll take it..

 

[Renze]

Ferrari even went so far as to add copper to the pistons, making them conduct and dissipate heat more efficiently while increasing tensile strength.

How does adding a super soft metal like copper increase tensile strength? I understand the heat dissipation, think Revere Ware pan, but clearly my metallurgy understanding is woeful.

its more than a century old, read here: Duralumin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and my chemistry isn't much better:

next-gen HT2 brake discs with added silicon

Now silica I understand in a brake pad, but silicon(e)? Ok, I looked it up, and they are all related.
Silicon is the basis of the ubiquitous synthetic silicon-based polymers called silicones.

so we have something that is both very hard and used in industrial abrasives and also something that can be extremely slippery.
I guess that's why the chemists get the big bucks, but I could not imagine why anyone would use what I knew as drawer and window lube in the chemical compounding for brake pads. Must be the industrial grit relative.
When brakes become a ten grand option, or way more than that in certain cars, you have to wonder what justifies that.

The Brembo brakes standard in front in my XTS are some of the best I've ever had. Serious bite without the vibration or grinding.

Tractor brakes sure are simple, aren't they? they probably still use something good like asbestos...

carbide tips for table saws, are actually silicium carbide, also a silicium containing alloy.
Silicon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[daugen]

thanks Renze, really interesting, I must have been snoozing in high school chemistry class.
Four percent or slightly more copper adds strength to aluminum, but causes it to be more susceptible to corrosion, so
it is clad again with aluminum in aircraft use. Got it.

So if a piston mfg was going to add extra copper to a piston for better heat transfer, then it would make sense that improved
corrosion protection would also be built in. The Germans/Mahle have always been coating their bores with something exotic.
Nikasil? There's that "sil" again...

Carbide is amazing stuff. Just like a lot of the exotic ceramics, some of which I think were made for the space program.

 

[Renze]

So if a piston mfg was going to add extra copper to a piston for better heat transfer, then it would make sense that improved
corrosion protection would also be built in.

pistons wont corrode by weather, but i bet they test the corrosiveness of combustion gases and temperature before taking a new alloy into production

The Germans/Mahle have always been coating their bores with something exotic.
Nikasil? There's that "sil" again...

Nikasil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[daugen]

Well, it seems pretty picky as to what it drinks, but if one puts the proverbial high test in, and maybe an extra dose of some additive, it seems to be one of the most durable piston and cylinder coating magic stuff out there.

However... the cynic part of me, luckily a small part, wonders if these super durable liners have been found unnecessary because something else breaks first?
Has Detroit used this stuff, which I'm sure is not cheap at all? Maybe on long life truck engines? I know, i should go back and finish reading that article. Everything can be Googled and Wikipediad and I have them sitting up on my favorites bar.

 

[dstig1]

Silicium? Silicon Carbide is the typical "carbide" cutting tool edge.. Woodworking, metal working, etc. Is that a European name for it?

And guys, never assume that alloying metals averages the properties of each element. There are often very strange phases that occur as metals are "blended" together. "Adding copper" may do nothing for heat transfer but may make it more impact resistant, or more lubricious, or whatever. You kind of never know until you try it... It isn't real obvious much of the time.

 

[LD1]

Yep. Rarely do the properties "average" out.

Who would have thought that adding carbon to steel would make it extremely hard. Or adding soft aluminum to bronze makes it harder and more wear resistant?

 

[PoorMansCat]

I do know that some engines built in the very early days of internal combustion engines actually used steel , but when pushed- the pistons dome would deform due to the heat.

When aluminum was first tried -many were worried that the pistons would soften and melt, but the Aluminum transferred heat so much quicker that the softening became a non issue...

Another little tid- bit concerning diesel engines was the addition of a third compression ring, which I assumed was for the main purpose of reducing leakage during combustion,

It is actually more useful for heat transfer.... The dome gets the hottest and the major means of dissipating the heat- out of the piston is thru the rings to the cylinder walls and into the coolant.

A small article i read recently described how some marine diesel engine designers were derided- for not staying up with the times and asked why they couldn't make a 2 compression ring piston work-

So the company tooled up some new 2 compression ringed pistons, and tested their established design of marine diesel engine with the (new piston and rings) the result was over heated pistons in a very short order....

I guess that's why I have yet to see a diesel engine design employing only 2 compression rings... but do see engines with oil cooling jets...

uummm... Caterpillar Diesel engines have only two compresion rings.

 

[RoyJackson]

Copper has been an alloying agent of aluminum for decades...nothing new there. I have no idea what aluminum alloy used in their pistons previously...but I wouldn't surprise me if it had been an aluminum-copper alloy (2xxx series alloy) all along and the reviewer added that sentence to jazz up his article.
BTW, I don't know if Ferrari casts or forges their own pistons, or if they buy the pistons...but either way, they don't make the alloy...they buy it.

 

[EMB5530]

Metalurgy is a very interesting subject(wish I were smart enough to understand it:confused3 A book I found out about from some posting on here was "Metals and How To Weld Them" and it talks a little about the makup of metals and how it add to the strengths and weaknesses of them.
Very good read for novices such as myself.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Metallurgy is a science all to itself.

It is funny that adding different amounts of elements to metals and what new properties they take on. You could go to school for umpteen years and still not know everything about metallurgy. Heating and cooling can change the properties immensely too.

 

[Bob77064]

That must be the econonmy model it's only $233,509 starting price.

 

[EMB5530]

Yes, it is very interesting to run into someone who really knows there metals and look at what they make. Heck I can find all sorts of interest in just a home made punch. Geek:ashamed: