Cub Cadet Z-Force 50 Hydrostatic Transmission

[RICKYMARK]

This summer at 1.5 years of age and 6 months before the end of Cub Warranty and 2.5 years before the end of the Tractor Supply warranty. my cub began running for about 30 to 40 minutes then suddenly while moving the left transmission will stop working, causing the mower to spin counterclockwise, hitting anything that happens to be there. Now here is the BIG RUB. It is now in the shop for the second time for this issue. The first time, they could not replicate the problem so cub would not let them do anything. The second time (now) it went in the beginning of Aug 09 and as of Sept 3 09 is still there torn down with the following issues: The cylinder is pitted extenisvly, the service center says it is from "water in the oil" from condensation, since it is water in the oil, cub, mtd, and TSC warranty refuse to cover it, (it rolled from Cub warranty to TSC extended while sitting in the shop) I spoke to the Alabama Regional MTD rep today and he simply refered me back to Cub. I'm not going to take this one sitting down. The hydro fluid on a cub is "supposed" to be designed to absorb this type of moisture - at least I assume so from the old years with IH and the hyrdo farm tractors we used - sad thing is I mow a nearly perfectly flat roughly 2 acres and keep the mower in a shed so it's not abused in any way. I'm normally a very easy going guy, but this has got me a little riled up and I think it's time for cub owners to make Cub Cadet ante up and cover our losses, this is obviously a common problem according to several service centers, mostly with the left transmission, it will work for awhile then suddenly stop while moving along, (also see the RZT Transmission Thread in this forum) I've had several quite dangerous occurences from it. So far I've contacted the local Fox Affiliate to start a Fox On Your Side investigation on behalf of Cub Cadet owners, tomorrow, I'll be speaking with an attorney re. the merits of class action.

 

[JTKub]

Do you rinse down this machine regularly with water?? There is no way in heck you could have condensation build-up in these hydros given their small oil holding capacity, the fact they heat up very quickly and it's hot in Alabama. Any minute amount of condensation would vaporize out in short order. You also might want to get with Hydro-Gear on this (makers of the hydrostatic drives). I'm sure they'd be interested to hear of your issues: 1-877-728-7410 Hydro-Gear ? ZT Series

Joel

 

[VinceSMTA]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, I hope it all works out for you. This just reaffirms that I am very glad I buy all my equipment from an independent Cub dealer. My dealer is the only reason I stuck with Cub after an underwhelming performance from my 5234D.

 

[RICKYMARK]

No regular rinsing, An occasional "light" rinse but pretty infrequent. Although it isn't always hot in Alabama when we have to mow, we get a lot of wild onions and weeds that have be cut several times a year during the winter months, I've actually cut sometimes when it's as low as 30 degrees. As to rinsing it off, even if I did it regularly, why would that even matter, they store these things outside in the rain all time at the stores, and I've shed kept mine since new.

 

[RICKYMARK]

Just talked to hydro-gear as suggested and now I'm REALLY frustrated. They told me that these transmissions are designed to be sealed and if you mow with any dew on the grass, or if they are even sealed like they are supposed to be at the factory, they will indeed build up moisture in them, therefore they will have some condensation build up in them and that yes, if I have a failed transmission due to this condition that my service center is correct, it is NOT covered under warranty. So the logic is, build a transmission designed to be sealed that builds up condensation that causes failure specifcially excluded from warranty so the consumer buys a new one. Now there's a racket that would get the average person put in jail. How in the name of sense are they getting by with this, I've now been refered back to my service center by Hyrdo Gear. Next call is to Tractor Supply, then to the local Fox Affilitate to proceed with the consumer advocay investigation then to the state attorney general then to the attorneys.

 

[JTKub]

I'd still want to see (and have analyzed) a sample of this so called condensation laden hydrostatic oil. I gotta still call foul here. In the years I've been involved with these boards I've never heard of this, nor have I personally seen it in ~25yrs of tinkering with this stuff. Yes I've seen water in large old school garden tractor differentials (gear oil). Never in hydrostatic oil. It gets warm enough to eliminate it.

Joel

 

[OldMachinist]

Which caps do you have on the transmission vents? The reason I ask is that on my 2006 Z-Force 50 the original caps where a full umbrella that covered the vent very well but when I serviced the transmissions awhile back I broke one of the caps and ordered new ones. The new ones had just tiny little caps that didn't look like to me they would keep anything out and I was right because the next mowing season I had milky oil in both sides. I had to change the oil again and this time I used vent caps that go on hydraulic tanks that have a filter and full protection from stray moisture. In the picture you see the original vent on the left, the new MTD replacement vent center and my current setup right.

 

[RICKYMARK]

JTKub:
I'd agree with you on the oil, but can't speak to it, the shop has the mower torn down and probably has discarded the fluid. I can't do any of my own service work anymore due to a bad back. You are right, hydro oil should handle any condensate, that's why they make it and why it's so pricy, if it truly was milky, then it was filled incorrectly from the factory with incorrect fluid because I've never done anything with the transmissions. Right after I bought it, I ordered a quart of hydro-oil to have on hand in case I ever needed it, but it's still in the shed unopened. So you got me there. I can only go on the cub service center's word.

Oldmachinist:
I don't have a clue which of those two I have, I've never looked and since the mower is at the shop, can't run out the shed and look, I bought near the end of 2007 if that helps.

I have heard of quite a few folks in a three county area here locally who have had similar issues, quite a few folk in the area bought these things that summer of 2007 and have since replaced them with other brands.

 

[RICKYMARK]

Which caps do you have on the transmission vents? The reason I ask is that on my 2006 Z-Force 50 the original caps where a full umbrella that covered the vent very well but when I serviced the transmissions awhile back I broke one of the caps and ordered new ones. The new ones had just tiny little caps that didn't look like to me they would keep anything out and I was right because the next mowing season I had milky oil in both sides. I had to change the oil again and this time I used vent caps that go on hydraulic tanks that have a filter and full protection from stray moisture. In the picture you see the original vent on the left, the new MTD replacement vent center and my current setup right.

Where are those things located, since I can't do much anymore because of my back, I've never even really crawled under this thing to look at the trans. (sad day ain't it) Anyway, I'll try to swing by the service center in the am and see if I can get in the back and look at it up on the rack than let you know.

 

[OldMachinist]

You said you bought it in 2007 so it depends on your serial number the 2006 models had these one on each side of the engine but somewhere after that(2007-2008) they changed to having the vent tubes run up to a small tank.

 

[JTKub]

Dang! OM, you had water in your hydro oil as well at one point! That is unreal. Not only did the shoddy 'vent' cap not keep anything out, it doesn't sound like they allowed the transaxles to breath as any gear/hydraulic system needs to. What a horrible way to ruin a high dollar hyrdostatic drive; with a lousy five cent pc of plastic.

Joel

 

[OldMachinist]

Here's a picture of the oil I drained out.

While I had the transmissions out this time I drilled and tapped them for drain plugs. I just plan on changing the oil every spring. Cheap insurance for a few quarts of oil.

 

[JTKub]

That's unreal OM. I'm glad to see you caught it early and got it out of there. Regular oil changes on those hydros looks like the only way to go.

Joel

 

[RICKYMARK]

K guys, time for an update, stopped by the shop last evening to take some photos and the owner asked what attorney I knew. When I asked him why, he said that it was all taken care of and that they were just waiting on a new transmission to arrive. Don't know who called who but someone shook bushes somewhere and apparently based on a message I finally got from CUB today, they are the ones replacing the Tran. They also sent me a message to call "Jake" (name changed) head of service at Cub. eventually he and I connected and had a pretty long conversation, basically he told me to put away the pressure washer and the garden hose, neither of which I've ever used (may have done a light rinse on the mower one time, can't remember) but then he did admit that RAIN of all things can cause these things to get water in the tran fluid, he took my serial number and it turns out my mower is about three years old but bought only two years ago so it was outside at the store nearly a full summer before I bought it, which now brings up another HUGE issue, if you buy a new one, MAKE SURE IT"S NOT OUTSIDE AT THE DEALER, you could be getting water in your transmission, he said if it starts to slow down at all after it heats up from running, suspect water in the tran. Mine has been shed kept since I bought it, so I'm now wondering ....

Now issue number 2. He also said, "don't get the spindles wet, that can damage them too", though I've never used it, one of my employees quickly pointed out, how in the world are you supposed to use that hyped up deck wash feature and keep the spindles dry?

 

[JTKub]

Wow! Good news. Thanks for the update. So it looks like the folks at Hydrogear stepped up to the plate here? That's good to know. FWIW, I know the deck spindles on my 2544 aren't really sealed to keep water out. I used the deck wash once when I first got it and abandoned it. I just use my leaf blower to and a wooden scraper to clean it now.

Joel

 

[OldMachinist]

The problem of tractors and mowers sitting at a dealer for a year or two before being sold has come up for discussion here before and it just dawned on me that even thou its hard to tell the year Cub manufactured the machine by its model and serial number the engine ID plate should have the year the engine was made and if it isn't plainly stated you can figure it out pretty easy. Kohler now states directly on the plate the build date and some other manufacturers you can dechipher the year by the serial number or date code. With todays just in time inventory practices you can be pretty sure that engines ordered for OEM use are made and delivered within a short period of time before the machines are asembled. With ecomomy the way it's been I'll bet there are a lot machines being sold new that have been sitting someplace in inventory so if your outthere looking at new equipment I verify the year made and if its been sitting work them down on the price.

 

[Goebz]

I have a Z force 50 and at the end of last year the right side started going slower than the left at the same lap bar position. I tried adjusting and tightening linkages and so forth to no avail. My manual says only the dealer can change the fluid but it cant be that difficult. I have searched for online manuals and only found $15 purchase options. Anybody know where one is posted? I have about the same year/model you are talking about here.

 

[OldMachinist]

Here's a link to the Cub Z-Force Service manual Cub_Cadet_Z-Force_Series_Zero_Turn_Service_Repair_Manual_2.pdf But it only shows how to remove and install the transmissions. Here's a link to the Hydro-Gear IZT service manual that tells how to change the oil. Hydro_Gear_IZT_service_manual.pdf
Before you try this you should know that you need to remove the transmission to service it and that the bolts that hold the bottom pan on are self tapping and are likely rusted in place solid. If you search this forum you'll find the post I made about the trouble I had with these bolts the first time I serviced mine. Any of the bolts that are in thru holes clean out the crud in the open hole and apply penetrating oil, let it stand overnight and then slowly try to work the bolts out. You may have to apply some heat from a propane torch to the aluminum housing to get the bolts to move. The service manual says to replace the bolts with standard ones when you re-assemble.
The filter screen will just pry off and you can wash in out in clean solvent. Refill with quality 20w50 oil thru the vent hole to the level specified. After re-installing the transmission do the purging procedure in the manual.

 

[Goebz]

THIS MAY BE OVER MY HEAD. I can change oil in cars and bikes but complex procedures can befuddle me. I may be better off paying the $50 and hour to have them change out the fluids and adjust the belts.

The thing I cant stand is taking it to a "reputable" place and they have some snot nosed teenager in the back wrenching on it for minimum wage.

 

[Pauli Gonzali]

OldMachinist...where did you tap and dye on the transmission??
Your posting of the trans removal was actually really fun! Just wondering the best spot
to drill a hole and if you had any tips/recommendations for doing so.