CUT vs CTL

[Zigblazer]

I finally bought an old Case backhoe last year. I've put a couple hundred hours on my neighbors mini excavator in the last 6-7 years. I've used a mid sized front loader at the truck dealer I worked at, mostly for snow removal and moving stubborn trucks in and out of the shop. I've put a few hundred hours on various tractors, mostly older 2wd, and a newer small JD 2210. I used a skid steer back in '99 for setting propane tanks. I've put more than 100 hours on my 580c backhoe in the past year. So I've had some experience, but not with the machines I've been considering. I've wanted a smaller utility tractor for a while, (in the 30hp range). After I bought the backhoe I purchased a new house. I'm on 20 acres now, with a creek running through the middle, and I'm now 10 miles from my gravel pit instead of 3. I have a 12,000lb trailer that can haul a CUT or CTL, but no way to haul the backhoe. Once I'm done with the major digging at this new place I won't have much use for the backhoe anymore.

I was planning on selling the backhoe and getting a newer hydrostatic CUT, but now this new place has much wetter land than anticipated. I've had the backhoe stuck many times, and 4wd wouldn't have helped, it is just too heavy and sinks in the mud. I am getting good at self recovery with it, but will not have that option with it's replacement. After much thought, I've realized that getting stuck is a major problem wherever I've been working. It is just for me, my little projects, and helping friends out a bit. My 40 acre parcel with the gravel pit has very little top soil and then it is all clay for the rest of the property. I've been stuck with many vehicles on it including the JD 2210 of my neighbors and the mini ex. Another friend of mine has a JD skid steer and asked why I didn't look at getting one of them instead. I said I've used one and know how fast they can get stuck. He said when he put's the tracks on his, it is unstoppable. So I looked further. My major tasks include moving dirt, moving gravel, leveling, and smoothing land. I planned on using a tiller with a CUT and dragging stuff smooth, but think a CTL would be more efficient, and easier. I haven't had the JD 2210 to this new place, but knowing how fast the mini ex got stuck, I don't think it would fair so well. Everything within 50 ft of the creek is soft without a bottom that I've found. The soft soil turns into swamp on the northeast side and that curls around behind the house. Past that I have a decent amount of top soil on top of clay. I want to get trees planted by the creek and have a path to walk around it eventually (so a lot of work near the creek). So the soft ground workability of a CTL is a great advantage. One last thing about me is, I keep everything I own in excellent mechanical shape. I put over $2k into the backhoe just to make sure it was up to the task of replacing the drain tile system around the house and digging a pond for it to drain to (because you can't legally drain it to a creek).

My question is this, (money aside) what would I be better off with? I really hate getting stuck and from everything I've read points to a Track Loader being a much better choice for me except the cost. I was saving up to put about $20k into a decent CUT, but I have no problem buying a used CTL and fixing problems for that price. Unfortunately I have a bunch more digging to do here, and no extra money, or I'd sell the backhoe now to get one. I just need a lot of dry weather so I don't bury it. So I'm hoping to have everything straightened out by next year and able to take a loan out for the remainder after selling the backhoe. So far, for my uses, I see the only downfall of a CTL being the price. I do like how inexpensive attachments are for a tractor, but moving snow with the loader this last winter was great, and adding a cab to the CUT would get it above the price of a nice used CTL. I think I'm past the point in life of being willing to clear snow out in the elements. I have a 1 ton with a dump box and plow for that, but it doesn't stack like the loader did.

 

[4570Man]

I have a limited amount if experience with a wheeled skid steer with over wheel metal tracks and a real CTL with rubber tracks. The wheeled machine does awful in mud. The metal tracks are an improvement but it's still awful. My tractor handles mud far better. The rubber tracked machine is a huge improvement. It's self extraction ability isn't as good as a TLB though. My even more limited experience on a mini excavator says it's by FAR the best at not getting stuck. Once stuck it's self extraction ability is also better than the CTL and probably as good or better as the TLB

 

[boggen]

type of tires on a CUT =
AG / R1 tires = thin tires, that drop down into the mud and keep going,
if you have Industrial / R4 = fatter / wider tires. that float on the mud and just get you stuck quickly.

chains, on the tires can help
some folks have put groves in the tire treads, to help get more traction as well.

tire pressure can be a big issue as well beyond tire types, in keeping traction.

ground clearance can be important on the bottom side of the tractor.
SCUT (sub compact utility tractor) = riding lawn mower on steroids, generally has same frame work as a riding lawn mower underneath, and not much ground clearance
CUT (compact utility tractor) = larger heavier frame, with more ground clearance underneath. (ground clearance is a big plus)

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for myself, a skidsteer (wheeled, or wheeled with tracks over, or just pure tracks (CTL compact track loader)) just not fast enough as in MPH. to much distance on 80 acre farm to travel. and skid steer was dropped from my own decision.

the videos and research i did for skidsteers. the tracks over wheels. seemed to be rather nice in mud. but like you creaks, to low wet spots that are rather large areas. i did not think a skidsteer would work for me. and that having a FEL (front end loader), and a backhoe would be needed. so i can push/pull with FEL on front, and push/pull on rear with backhoe. while spinning tires to get unstuck. (longer distance to reach in each direction) i have used backhoe a lot to pickup rear end of tractor and move it a couple inches left/right to get out of ruts and get unstuck.

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if your TLB (tractor loader backhoe) old case backhoe allows you to do 180 in the seat to operate backhoe or operate FEL. all good, but if you are jumping from tractor seat to backhoe seat then you might be having issues? and reason not liking the case backhoe?

with you getting hit with all the wetness. it is spring. everything is wet / soggy / muddy mess. wait till it drys out in summer. not much you can do till then. just how it is. once you get the dry weather work it as much as you can to clean up the wet areas (proper drainage, ditches, re landscaping / leveling areas with slope to drainage, etc...)

 

[TSO]

Look into an ASV/Terex CTL. They're made in Minnesota. The high ground clearance and suspended track system (and track design) provide excellent traction and floatation.

I've got a CUT, a Terex CTL, and recently, a backhoe. The amount of productivity the CTL gives over the CUT is remarkable. For the terrain and work you describe, i think it would be your best option.

 

[Grandad4]

Check out all the options, but try before you buy. A friend of mine once said, concerning having 4wd: You don't get stuck as easily, but when you're stuck, you're really stuck. That would apply to all kinds of off-road equipment. If the ground is soft enough, you can sink just about anything... YouTube is chock full of stuck dozer and excavator videos. So, before you put down any $ for equipment, don't just go on opinions floating around cyberspace, find out for real on your own property what equipment will actually work. Borrow or rent the equipment you're considering for a 1/2 day or whatever, and see for yourself what seems to work. You don't want to find out the hard way that your newly-purchased whatever won't get the job done.

 

[Industrial Toys]

When I bought my first 4x4 p/u, a friend told me, you drive into a place in 2wd. When you get stuck, you put it in 4 wheel and back out of there. I never forgot that. You go looking for trouble in a 4x4 and you will usually find it.

How about a telehandler? They are great at pushing themselves out of trouble.

Anything that tends to not get stuck is also not usually turf friendly. Our 6200 with AG tires does not get stuck easily, but you don't dare drive it across a lawn either.

 

[Zigblazer]

My backhoe weighs in around 13,000 lbs. With very little of that on the front tires. Even last fall when it was dryest, it would start sinking in while driving down by the creek. If I stopped to work anywhere down there, it would just bury itself. It was fairly good at self extraction, but required a few logs to help spread the weight out, and would leave a big mess. The seat does spin around, but I have to stand up to spin it and then sit back down. I'm not small enough to stay in it. The excavator I used weighs around 7,000 lbs with rubber tracks. Just moving it is extremely slow, but it will go over really soft stuff. It tends to get stuck when you stop to dig in a wet area and pushing dirt while anything is wet is not very successful. All the rocking back and forth squishes it down into the mud, and once down the tracks won't bite enough to get back out. It is usually fairly easy to get it out using the bucket most of the time. A few times I've needed to use logs to spread the weight out to get back on top of the mud. I wouldn't think the sinking would be a problem with a CTL, as it wouldn't work in one spot constantly. I think that testing one out is probably the best idea. I have a couple very large projects to finish this spring and may look into renting one for a few days. I have talked with the friend that has metal tracks for his wheeled skid steer, and he said I could borrow his for a few days also. I also need to wait to get the excavator back here.

The loader on the backhoe is completely useless with how wet it is right now (and it isn't really that wet, we haven't had much rain this spring). Any weight on the front tires stops it, and extending the hoe to put the weight back on the drive tires, just sinks them right in. Besides the house, driveway, garages, and creek area the rest of my property is field. I let the neighbor cut the hay and take it, since I have no use for it and he's been cutting it for at least 30 years. He said he doesn't cut near the creek at all because he always ends up getting stuck, even though the grass grows great in the lower area. Last fall it was about 5 feet tall and too thick to get the ATV to push through.

Around me the swamps and creeks tend to have no bottom. I made a trail several years ago through the swamp to connect to my old neighbors trails from my house. I built up the ground on top of logs and put a layer of gravel on top. It worked great, but there were parts that once through the top layer, the bucket didn't hit anything solid below, just pushed right down to it's 9 ft max depth. I've heard stories of someone loosing an entire excavator and a feller buncher when they went into the wrong place at the wrong time. That is why most swampy areas around here are logged in the winter while it is frozen. So the swampy areas never really dry, and tend not to have the clay base to support the weight. I only dug about 4 feet deep down by the creek, but only found mud there, while up a bit away from the creek had a max of 2 feet of dirt before clay or gravel. So I think the key for me will be keeping ground contact pressure low, and my backhoe is just too big of a machine with too little contact area to stay on top. I will have the JD 2210 back here to help smooth stuff out, It is on the small side, but we'll see how well it does down by the creek. The problem with testing out stuff is I don't know anyone around here that has one, or any place to rent a 30-40hp CUT to try. Being only around 3,000 lbs the 2210 might do ok down by the creek, until the ground gets disturbed anyway.

The tearing up of the yard is another reason I liked the idea of a CTL. From my experience, you are right, that a tractor with more ground clearance and ag tires will do well in mud, but then tears up the yard. It also stops doing well if pulling a trailer, or a drag to smooth out the ground. From others I've heard that a CTL does well in mud from having very little ground pressure (weight spread out over a large area), so it also does not tear up a lawn unless you start spinning in circles.

My previous plan was to get a tractor, use the loader to push the large stuff out of the way, use a tiller to loosen everything up, then drag the ground to make a nice smooth trail. It failed at every point last year, my loader couldn't push on the soft ground without getting stuck. The excavator was slow, and tracks would spin if it took any decent bite. The tiller just turned up the dirt into a mud bath, at which point the drag was useless until it dried out again.

Thank you for all of the information. I tend to overthink stuff, and the more experience and information the better. I might add, that being able to transport it on a trailer I have access to is a big must, I can't with the backhoe, but I think either a 30-40hp CUT or a 8-9,000 lb CTL would be just fine. I would like to be able to go get gravel from my gravel pit without having to borrow someone else's equipment or take an hour long trip to go the 10 miles.

 

[4570Man]

A CTL is hard on the lawn. Even driving in a straight line leaves considerably worse tracks than my tractor. Turning even slightly rips up turf. If you spin a 360 circle in place a tiller is less effective than the results.

 

[Zigblazer]

I had looked into a terek/asv CTL. I can't remember why I stopped. I know I can't get one now, but the only options anywhere near my price range I've seen are Bobcat T190s, JD 319Ds, and some Cat model. I honestly haven't seen any terex/asv CTLs for sale. That is looking at Auction sites, craigslist, and sites like machinerytrader. If I could get something before selling the backhoe, I would. But I still have a couple projects that require digging, and the person with the mini ex, has a major project going too. So I'll try to get it for a day or two, but most of the digging work will have to be done with the case. I also found two types of clay here, one tan that is thick and sticky and hard to dig through. And one grey that is really hard to dig through. The mini ex would only scratch the grey clay with the teeth, and never actually bite a chunk. The power and reach of the case are great. Just wish I could get it to where I want to work it, and wish I could use the loader more. I moved a small mountain of snow this winter with it, and was amazed at how fast it worked. I couldn't do that much in the summer because it would get stuck too often. That is where 4wd would come in real handy. The case should be able to lift 4-5,000 lbs with the loader and the 30-40hp CUT I would get would be closer to 1,200 lbs, so I'd be a little disappointed. Once you get up to a comparable loader lift for CUT and CTLs there isn't a lot of price difference anymore.

The more I think and type, the more I think I'm already convincing myself that a CTL would be better for me. Guess we'll see how the skid with steel tracks does when I get it over here. It is a larger 90s JD model with a set of wide tracks to go over the wide tires.

 

[bdog]

I vote for the CTL. I love mine. I had an older one without a cab that I replaced with the current one. I have four things on rubber tracks and they go anywhere. I have only been stuck where I required a pull once and that was in the bottom of a canal. I did not sink and could go back and forth the tracks were just coated in wet mud and it could not climb the steep sides without sliding back down. This particular machine weighs 19,000lb and I was able to pull it up the edge of the canal with my pickup.

I have ran my machines in all types of terrain in three different states and they just go and go and go. I have seen them float right through a mud hole that a 4x4 atv could not get through.