Cutter pump C140/FTX140

[tonyoz]

I suspect Eaton has 1,000's of these units in the field so if they where junk there would more than four failures being reported.

Roy

Roy
Everything I have been told about Eaton pumps by hydraulic specialists who say they aren't junk, but never the less when there are this many failures questions will arise. To keep things in perspective I think there is only 12-16 of these machines in Australia so that equates to a 25-33% failure rate. Would that be acceptable in the North American market? Are the working conditions here so different that the machines should be fitted with a different size pump? And the list goes on

Tony

 

[oldnslo]

25% failure would be way to many. Every manufacturer has problems with components in some applications. Are the rest of the components Eaton or are they another brand like Sauer Danfoss, RexRoth, etc...

As an example:
I know RexRoth has a large market share on the mulcher head motors, I have been told the other brands have problems with drive shaft twisting and breaking internally.

 

[tonyoz]

The other pumps (track drive X2) are Sunstrand,the mulcher is Rexroth X2, stumpgrinder Eaton, all good brand name gear.

 

[treemuncher]

Under 2,300 hrs on my FTX140 and my main mulcher pump has bit the dust. There was a slight whine from the pump that had not been there the day before. It ran for about 2-3 hrs and then while working on a stump, the flow quit. No loud noises or anything.

During jobsite inspection, I noted that the cutterhead would still rotate slowly but after shutting down the pump, the head continued to rotate what appeared to be freely without any back pressure, sort of like it was still getting flow to the head.

I got deeper into it today and pulled the stroke control assembly off. Looks like one of the stroke control pins is broken, evidence of 1/8" - 1/4" brass chips and a flat piece of steel washer chunk - all within the area under the stroke control plate. I don't know how much worse it will be inside of the main swashplate assembly area. Unless I am mistaken, I am going to have to pull the engine to get this pump out the easiest way.

Inspection of the air intake tube showed a trail of dirt entering into the turbo. I've had questionable sealing of the air filters in the plastic housing. I plan too do a compression test and, if things are not nearly 100%, I will do a major on the engine at the same time. I can't afford the downtime with the list of work that I have to look at. If I'm in for a penny on repairs, I'm in for a pound if it will keep me running longer without more incidents in the future.

Calls today put the rebuild of the pump at $1,900+ at one place and $4,200+ at another - my labor to remove the pump and bring it to them. I have an extra 6422-149 pump sitting on the shelf off of a burnt machine but no clue with what shape or how many hours on that one. Better to install a known good rebuild with the labor time being so intense. Best I can tell, remove cab, radiators and overhead cooler system in order to pull the engine off the main pump. Support the pumps with straps or a custom mount and remove main mulcher pump from travel pumps. It will not be fun trying to keep things spotlessly clean and getting to some of those fittings is nearly impossible.

Anyone else ever pull the mulcher pump themselves? Ideas, suggestions? (besides getting rid of the 140 - I still like it for its size and maneuverability on small jobs) I've thought of the RT200 as a replacement but I can not stomach the price at this time.

 

[tonyoz]

treemulcher, there is no easy way to get an Eaton pump out of these machines, all the pumps have to come out togetter and the hoses on the cutter pump can't be disconnected at the pump while in the machine. You will find the rotating group smashed to bits and not worth repairinng. I fitted a 90 series Danfoss pump and it has given good service in 3500 hrs, still putting out the same pressure and flow as when fitted. Rayco are fitting these pump on the new models. While you have the pumps out replace the bolts on the mounting plate, they do snap then your'e up for a new drive plate assembley and pump removel again. Tha cab has to come off but the oilcooler can remain on if you weld a bar onto the frame near the cab to support the cooler,just grind the weld off on completion. The track drive hoses underneath the machine have to be uncoupled (a) so you can get your hand in to undo the bolts and(b) to allow the pumps to move. It not an easy job to get the pumps out and its easier if 2 people do it plus a crane or fork lift of some sort. Remember to clean out all the mulcher curcuit and replace the filters.Good luck and I know yer pain

PS how much engine oil is the machine using

 

[treemuncher]

treemulcher, there is no easy way to get an Eaton pump out of these machines, all the pumps have to come out togetter and the hoses on the cutter pump can't be disconnected at the pump while in the machine. You will find the rotating group smashed to bits and not worth repairinng. I fitted a 90 series Danfoss pump and it has given good service in 3500 hrs, still putting out the same pressure and flow as when fitted. Rayco are fitting these pump on the new models. While you have the pumps out replace the bolts on the mounting plate, they do snap then your'e up for a new drive plate assembley and pump removel again. Tha cab has to come off but the oilcooler can remain on if you weld a bar onto the frame near the cab to support the cooler,just grind the weld off on completion. The track drive hoses underneath the machine have to be uncoupled (a) so you can get your hand in to undo the bolts and(b) to allow the pumps to move. It not an easy job to get the pumps out and its easier if 2 people do it plus a crane or fork lift of some sort. Remember to clean out all the mulcher curcuit and replace the filters.Good luck and I know yer pain

PS how much engine oil is the machine using

Tony,

The engine might use 1 gallon every 250 hrs. I may have only ingested dirt from a bad air cleaner for a short time. I will compression test before deciding on rebuild of the engine.

I'm glad to hear you went with the 90 series. I am familiar with those as I have those pumps on the Barko. Did you have to rework all of the hoses and routing or did it bolt right in to the same positions? My biggest concern is re-inventing the wheel with hose routing and connections into that cramped space.

My forklift makes life much easier for pulling engines.

 

[tonyoz]

Mate, I wouldn't even think of changing the engine yet,there may be a couple of thousand hours still in it. Get your moneys worth out of if and run it to distruction then fit a reman engine on exchange. The 90 series bolts straight in, no plumbing changes need. The only thing is the pump control lever works in the oppisite direction which is no big deal and there is no cutout switch.

 

[treemuncher]

Mate, I wouldn't even think of changing the engine yet,there may be a couple of thousand hours still in it. Get your moneys worth out of if and run it to distruction then fit a reman engine on exchange. The 90 series bolts straight in, no plumbing changes need. The only thing is the pump control lever works in the oppisite direction which is no big deal and there is no cutout switch.

I've finally pulled the engine and main cutter pump. All of the other pumps were left in place and supported with straps until everything is bolted back in.

I've been researching the differences between the Eaton 64 pump and a series 90 pump. The series 90 with the closest dimensions would be the 75 frame size but the closest output size is the 100 frame size. Tony, can you tell me which pump frame size was installed on your machine? I am concerned that an extra 2.5" in length with the 100 frame size could open up a whole new can of worms that will likely become poisonous snakes if I don't research this enough. It's tight enough working in the belly of the beast and a couple of inches difference might really become a problem.

 

[treemuncher]

For anyone else having to go through this headache of pulling the mulcher pump on the 140, here are a few ideas that might help.

1) Buy lots of JIC caps and plugs from #16 down to #4. I've been purchasing these from Hydraulic Fittings | Hose Fittings Online Store | Hydraulics Direct for good prices and fast shipping. It's cheaper to drop $200-$300 on plugs and caps than to allow dirt in and wreck your hydraulic system. Cleanliness is everything in hydraulics. Drain the hydraulic tank with an oil filtration cart. Filtering the oil down to 2 microns will allow re-use of the hydraulic fluid.

2) Take the time to remove the overhead oil cooler and cab assemblies. Getting the oil cooler & fan lines out of the way will add a little working room that will make a big difference. Old copper phone main line with multiple color coded wires are great for marking matching hose connections.



3) The engine and main mulcher pump CAN be pulled together without removing the rear sheet metal parts. The engine/pump will need to be rotated 90 degrees once high enough to facilitate removal. Crow's foot wrenches, short box end wrenches and curved distributor wrenches make some of the connectors easier to remove. I did NOT break any of the track drive lines apart - there was no need to open that system and risk contamination the way I did my engine removal. All hoses from the mulcher pump can be removed with the exception of the 2 lines going to the filter - cap and plug those 2 at the filter connections and leave connected at the pump until pump is out of the machine.



4) Be sure to support the track drive and pilot pumps before removing the mulcher pump/engine assembly. A couple of well placed ratchet straps are perfect to hold everything in place. Once enough slack is taken up on the straps, remove the two bolts holding the track drive pump to the mulcher pump and pry apart. Be sure to adjust straps to keep pumps in normal position and then remove engine/mulcher pump assembly.



5) Ensure all caps and plugs are tight on broken open fittings/lines. Take the opportunity to steam/pressure wash anything you have not normally accessed. Make sure there is NO loose dirt to contaminate any hydraulic fluids prior to re-assembly. After flushing hydraulics, wash/steam again just prior to re-assembly.

6) Use an oil filtration cart to flush all potentially contaminated lines, tank and cooler. I use a mixture of mostly diesel fuel with some old hydraulic fluid to flush my lines. I keep my flushing mix in a separate drum just for these occurrences and the filtration cart removes the contamination.


I've priced repairs and new pumps with the Eaton OEM pump from $2k - $7.5k

I currently have a price for a custom built series 90 size 100 pump for $3.5k. My only concern with this is the extra 2" length required BUT I think this will still fit in without changing hoses.:confused3:

 

[tonyoz]

Don't go with Eaton pump unless you enjoy wrenching. I fitted the 100 pump and was more interested in making sure the shafts and spickets were the same as the Eaton. In light of mentioning about the mounting bolts breaking, now would be a good time to make a support mount under the pumps to stop this failure. Are you going to rebuild the engine as well? Sorry to have taken so long to reply but I have had some sh*t internet nonservice.