Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Cutting / Groving / Siping R-4 for snow

[rankrank1]

OK, my Ideal heated Kinfe came on Friday. I ordered #4, #5, and #6 heads and blades. I started thinking about it and decided to wait till I ran this idea past you experienced guys before I started cutting rubber. Waking up on Sunday morning I had a brainstorm and went out to the shop to try it. I assembled a #5 cutter on a #6 head. Below I have attached a photo showing the weird combo #5 cutter on a #6 head on the left, and a standard #4 head and #4 cutter on the right. Hopefully the picture is clear enough so you can see the result. The weird setup gives non-parallel cut lines. I am thinking this will allow the mud to eject more readily. I cut some grooves in a rubber mudflap, and the grooves are still very sharp at the edge, so I am pretty sure the edges will still cut and grip. And of course regardless of the shape cut, the knobs will gain in flexibility, which gives grip too. Any thoughts? Thanks.

First, I will admit that I have never grooved or siped tires, but I definitely would NOT mis-match the cutters as your pictures show to get the slanted groove. I think the slanted groove would not work as well as the square groove that the proper cutter assembly clearly supplies.

Only first hand experience that I have which sorta relates is with dirt bike knobbies back in my younger years. Pro level motocross riders would literally change tires after one race - or more specifically as soon as the square edge on the leading edge of the knobbies just started to round over even a little bit such that the edge was no longer square. I was not a Pro level rider back then or now, but even at my skill level as a highly spirited rider I could easily tell the difference in diminished handling once the square edge on the knobbies was lost. I could not afford buying tires so I would flip discarded used racing tires around and run them backwards (since they otherwise were almost like brand new) to get the squarest edge on the leading edge. If I was too lazy to mount and then remount another slightly used tire then sometimes I would simply grind a new square edge with a handheld grinder.

In short, Use the guide that the manufacturer is recommending which will provide the square edge that will be needed.

 

[DAY]

In short, Use the guide that the manufacturer is recommending which will provide the square edge that will be needed.

What- if anything- does the iron mfr. say about grooving tires? Any instructions come with the tool? The mention of dirt bike racing made me wonder if there isn't a thread similar to this on some other site. "Hummer Luvvers" or JeepNutx"- folks with lots of money and a love of getting stuck in the mud:laughing:

 

[jimgerken]

I would just use the right blade with the right head. For whatever reason, the directions say to be sure to only use the right blade and head together......Not sure why.....
I think you would want the cuts more open on the opening edge, and if anything they could be narrower on the side twords the core of the tire. Your combo does the opposite of this.

I would personally just decide on a size and be sure to cut them nice and deep right away. I wish I had cut mine just a little deeper (if anything, but I am 100% happy with them for sure).

Deadman, you lost me there with the "narrower towards the core..." Maybe I have assembled the head completly wrong, or am misunderstanding you, but it seems to me that the first head in my pic above would make a groove that is "more open on the opening edge and narrower towards the core" like you said. ???

I will post pics of finished product next week.

 

[Deadman]

Deadman, you lost me there with the "narrower towards the core..." Maybe I have assembled the head completly wrong, or am misunderstanding you, but it seems to me that the first head in my pic above would make a groove that is "more open on the opening edge and narrower towards the core" like you said. ???

I will post pics of finished product next week.

Yep, my mistake. I looked at it wrong.
I see why you say it might work better now..... I'm not real sure, but it would allow for a larger opening.
I just followed the manufacturers suggestion on the sizing, but it might be worth a try if you like this better. I'm sure some are a little better than others, its just that noone really knows the answer to that Until they try it! So, go for it! :thumbsup: Let us know how they work out, and how the cutter works set up like that!

 

[jimgerken]

Deadman, thanks. Yup, will report back with pics. Thanks for the clarification on your comment. I wanted to try this out now that the weather is finally warm enough to work with the shop doors open for ventilation, but really wanted your feedback first.

 

[nwbearcat]

Hi guys, I am also looking for more traction on snow. Any idea who makes/sells the snow tires on this tractor? Thanks
View attachment 203116

Pretty sure they're these: Nokian Tri2

Tractor - Nokian Heavy Tyres

good luck finding those...

 

[gladehound]

In the end, I think the minor difference from using a bigger head with a smaller blade would be hardly noticable if you did side by side testing compared to the standard matched head sizes. However, the manufacture does state that the head and blade sizes should always be matched. There could be a safety issue here. If you put a blade that is too small with a larger head, when you tighten the bolt that clamps both sides of the blade to the head you could overstress the blade where it meets the edge of the cutter and this could contribute to the blade breaking when you're pushing hard to make that grove. Not an issue if your tires are really warm because then you don't need to push hard at all. Just something to be aware of and completely my own speculation.

 

[Deadman]

In the end, I think the minor difference from using a bigger head with a smaller blade would be hardly noticable if you did side by side testing compared to the standard matched head sizes. However, the manufacture does state that the head and blade sizes should always be matched. There could be a safety issue here. If you put a blade that is too small with a larger head, when you tighten the bolt that clamps both sides of the blade to the head you could overstress the blade where it meets the edge of the cutter and this could contribute to the blade breaking when you're pushing hard to make that grove. Not an issue if your tires are really warm because then you don't need to push hard at all. Just something to be aware of and completely my own speculation.

Exactly why I never even considered using different blades in the wrong head. I didn't want to be the guinea pig, and find out the hard way! :laughing:

There would likely not be any safety issues with it, but I know as hard as I was pushing that if my blade broke and my hand came near it, that I would be seriously cut! I love modding stuff, but I usually wait to hear someone elses results first, kinda like Gladehound cut his tires and then I followed his lead! :thumbsup:

 

[rankrank1]

What- if anything- does the iron mfr. say about grooving tires? Any instructions come with the tool?

Read the post two away from your question. It is stated in #121 from Deadman.

 

[rankrank1]

In the end, I think the minor difference from using a bigger head with a smaller blade would be hardly noticable if you did side by side testing compared to the standard matched head sizes. However, the manufacture does state that the head and blade sizes should always be matched. There could be a safety issue here. If you put a blade that is too small with a larger head, when you tighten the bolt that clamps both sides of the blade to the head you could overstress the blade where it meets the edge of the cutter and this could contribute to the blade breaking when you're pushing hard to make that grove. Not an issue if your tires are really warm because then you don't need to push hard at all. Just something to be aware of and completely my own speculation.

Safety could be a factor but I doubt it. The mismatched cutter and guide pic from earlier does not look prone to breaking so I do not think that is why the manufacturer is recommending to only use the proper guide with the cutter. In reality, tire manufacturers have done extensive testing on all types of tires to find out what works best in regards to tread design. I have yet to see a single tire manufacture put a tire on the market that did not consist of some type of random pattern that contains all square edges. If tapered edges or tapered treads were a good thing we would be seeing them in the market somewhere with someones claims of a miracle tire. My guess is the manufacturers already know it will not work as well as they have already fully tested it.

Additionally, Going back to dirt bike knobbies again, On those occasions when I could not find almost new take-offs to swap out: I mentioned that I would try to grind the leading edges square again with a 4 1/2" angle grinder. Well in reality - this was not really an easy job nor a quick job with the primitive tools that I had back then. After a couple grindings, I would end up with a slightly tapered Knobby because it would take me too much time and effort to keep the knobby square all the way down to the casing with my primitive tools. While a squared tip edge always did help traction/handling; I can speak from experience that the tapered knobbies even with a squared tip edge did not work as well as a squared knobbies with a square tip edge.

I applaud the effort that Gladehound and Deadman have put into their tire grooving. I definitely believe their effort has helped improve an R4's tire performance in snow if done right. I just believe part of doing it right is using the proper guide with the proper cutter in order to get the maximum traction benefit possible as using the proper guide will deliver a squared edge groove that is the principle foundation of all tire tread patterns. If I ever decide to groove my tractor tires I know I will use manufacturer recommended guide that provides the square edge.