Debating POSITION CONTROL. What is it to YOU?

[J_J]

Isn't this going a bit far dragging this out as you and most people should know what PC and draft and 1/4 in does.

If you want these things on a tractor, then go and purchase a model that has the functions you want, or purchase add on's if available.

I think the subject has been thoroughly debated.

Is this all about does your tractor have or does not have PC?

 

[aczlan]

My Redneck description is "Position Control returns the 3pt lift to the exact same location everytime the lever is put in the same position. Change position of the lever and the 3pt lift will accurately and repeatedly go to the exact same location EVERY time."

So if I'm carrying a brushcutter for example, I can set the 3pt lever stop to a specific location and each time I lower the 3pt lever to that stop the brushcutter will be at exactly the same height. 1/4 inch valving and whatever else you want to call it won't do that. If you use your 3pt a lot there is no comparison between the two. If looking at a CUT tractor, the type of 3pt valving is the first thing I want to know.

That is how I understand it.

I use the GC1710 as an example because it is generally understood to not have PC. But as you have just stated, by your understanding of PC, the GC1710 indeed has PC.
There is no sticker on the side of the slot where the lever travels with numbers. But, I could use a sharpy marker and make a tick as a reference guide to move the lever to every time which achieve what you describe. I could use a bolt with a wing nut to created a settable "Hard Stop" for the lever to bump up against to stop the 3pt hitch at the same spot every time, then this would meet your definition.

Have you done this? The parts book (found at http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/79035668 ) appears to just show a quarter inching valve, NOT a position control valve. It can be differentiated by a feedback rod going to the valve that tells the valve what height the 3 point is at (relative to its travel distance) which makes the numbers match the 3 point height every time. In a 1/4 inching system, the lever just controls a valve to adjust how much fluid is in the lift cylinder(s).

In the same way, the LS J, per the company brochure, has Position control. But there are no mechanical hard stops or sticker with hash marks. Still, you you do have the ability to place the lever in the same exact spot every time with or without these visual ques.
Further, and generally speaking, nearly every modern tractor has PC if this is the definition.

That would be correct, once you get outside of the compact and subcompact market, pretty much every tractor from the Ford N series on (and perhaps a few older ones as well) has position control. Whether it has a sticker with numbers on it is irrelevant. If the arms always go to to the same spot when you put the lever in the same spot it has position control. If you have to move the lever like you were operating a hydraulic remote to get to the same height, it does NOT have position control no matter what the manufacturer says

Kubota is something for sure. There is a center neutral position, such that even though you can stop the 3pt hitch at an infinite number of places on long the length of its travel, you can't place the lever in any position that allows you to identically match the same height adjustment every time. So if we are using this definition of PC, simply being able to stop the 3pt at any place along the way is not good enough. You have to be able to place the lever in some specific position that recreates that height adjustment every time. A center neutral lever mechanism does not allow this.

The Kubota valve you are referring to is generally called a 1/4" valve or (Select Control on a Deere). It is NOT position control.
As has been said several times, Position Control means that when you put the lever at the 5 mark, the 3 point arms move to the same height (relative to the tractor) EVERY TIME.
Somebodies paper on the matter (more on draft control, but it has some images of how the feedback linkage is connected): http://www.dkts.si/Izvedeni seminarji/Simpozij 2001/Tractor Hitch Control.pdf
If you want the gospel according to Green Tractor Talk, here is what they have to say:

Select Control Type: This is the most basic system that John Deere uses to control the 3pt hitch system. This type uses a rockshaft control lever that has an up, down and neutral position. Implement positioning is controlled by how quickly an operator can return the lever to the neutral position. You push the rockshaft control lever forward to lower and back to raise an implement. The middle position is neutral and on newer tractors the control lever will return to neutral automatically as soon as the operator releases the control lever from up or down positions while some older tractors the operator had to return the lever to neutral manually. With this basic system an operator may get the implement in the same position 1 out of 100 times. This type is neither precise nor accurate.
Position Control Type: This type of control system involves a rockshaft control lever that has a full up and full down position as well as the ability of stopping at any point in-between. This JD type usually uses a scaled strip next to the control lever with a moveable stop so an operator may raise and lower the implement to the predetermined 都top position. If you were looking to have your plow, box blade or mid-mount mower raise and lower by the 3pt hitch to the same position this would be the control type you would want to select. It should be mentioned that the precision and accuracy of the position control is not mentioned and this is due to lack of data but the precision appears to be relatively high.
Load Sensing Control Type: Load-sensing types are normally used in conjunction with the position control type and uses mechanical or electrical sensors to control the positioning of the 3pt arms as load forces increase or decrease. Load-sensing is found on John Deere tractors that are capable of larger ground engaging equipment, as the load-sensing was originally designed for plowing implements. When used with position control the load sensing controls will raise the 3pt arms when the draft increases and lowers them back to the position control set stop point when the load decreases.

Aaron Z

 

[trktrman]

Like Aaron quoted:
Select Control Type: This is the most basic system that John Deere uses to control the 3pt hitch system. This type uses a rockshaft control lever that has an up, down and neutral position. Implement positioning is controlled by how quickly an operator can return the lever to the neutral position. You push the rockshaft control lever forward to lower and back to raise an implement. The middle position is neutral and on newer tractors the control lever will return to neutral automatically as soon as the operator releases the control lever from up or down positions while some older tractors the operator had to return the lever to neutral manually. With this basic system an operator may get the implement in the same position 1 out of 100 times. This type is neither precise nor accurate.
Position Control Type: This type of control system involves a rockshaft control lever that has a full up and full down position as well as the ability of stopping at any point in-between. This JD type usually uses a scaled strip next to the control lever with a moveable stop so an operator may raise and lower the implement to the predetermined 都top position. If you were looking to have your plow, box blade or mid-mount mower raise and lower by the 3pt hitch to the same position this would be the control type you would want to select. It should be mentioned that the precision and accuracy of the position control is not mentioned and this is due to lack of data but the precision appears to be relatively high.
Load Sensing Control Type: Load-sensing types are normally used in conjunction with the position control type and uses mechanical or electrical sensors to control the positioning of the 3pt arms as load forces increase or decrease. Load-sensing is found on John Deere tractors that are capable of larger ground engaging equipment, as the load-sensing was originally designed for plowing implements. When used with position control the load sensing controls will raise the 3pt arms when the draft increases and lowers them back to the position control set stop point when the load decreases.
This should be the final words. Case Rested!!!!

 

[boggen]

i think ya caught up in marketing propaganda. singalo. and trying to get marketing departments to state same thing. and trying to get companies to compete on same level of marketing. vs letting marketing do there thing, and try and over bloat this or that and they really do not go into much detail. that another manufacture doing might be better here vs theirs in a given situation.

return to position, position control, load sensing, traction boost, drag *something, i forget extra word), float, and i am sure the list goes on.

differing ways of describing same things many times. but only using blanket statements, without giving extra detail. of how it works.

 

[Singalo]

ACZLAN:

Thank you very much for that post. That is the kind of meat and potatoes information that you can actually have a discussion about. Thank you again for making this post.

There are two things that I would like to respond to. Concerning the GC and rather or not I tried this.

Have you done this? The parts book (found at http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsB...=agco/79035668 ) appears to just show a quarter inching valve, NOT a position control valve. It can be differentiated by a feedback rod going to the valve that tells the valve what height the 3 point is at (relative to its travel distance) which makes the numbers match the 3 point height every time. In a 1/4 inching system, the lever just controls a valve to adjust how much fluid is in the lift cylinder(s).

I will be making a return trip to the dealer to verify this very thing. But until that time, which will be soon I hope, here is what my experience was with the GC1710. The dealer had a tiller on the 3pt hitch. The lever has no center position. It has an fully up position, and a fully down position. Anyplace you stop the lever between the FU and FD positions will stop the 3pt at some corresponding position. The dealer demonstrated how i would go about adjusting the depth the tiller would dig by placing the lever at some point above the FD position. He demonstrated full up, full down, and then demonstrated setting the height at some place in between. Just by placing the lever. SOOOO, If I were to make a sharpy tic mark on the fender slot that the lever travels through, and I moved the lever to that mark over and over, I would expect that the tiller would come to approximately the same height every time. How accurately? That I don't know. But the JD excerpt you posted said.

It should be mentioned that the precision and accuracy of the position control is not mentioned and this is due to lack of data but the precision appears to be relatively high.

The quarter inching valve as demonstrated in the kubota video that I posted relied on "Detents" that you were supposed to tap in order to get the quarter inch effect. You mentioned that the GC seems to have a quarter inching valve. If it does, and it may, it does not at all function like the kubota. As demonstrated in the video. The GC has a lever that moves to any position you put it, and stays. So does the 3pt hitch. So if the GC has a quarter inching valve, well, we will see when I go back out to the dealer how it plays out. But having seen the tiller demonstration, I think I know where it will end up.

 

[Singalo]

i think ya caught up in marketing propaganda. singalo. and trying to get marketing departments to state same thing. and trying to get companies to compete on same level of marketing. vs letting marketing do there thing, and try and over bloat this or that and they really do not go into much detail. that another manufacture doing might be better here vs theirs in a given situation.

return to position, position control, load sensing, traction boost, drag *something, i forget extra word), float, and i am sure the list goes on.

differing ways of describing same things many times. but only using blanket statements, without giving extra detail. of how it works.

You are not the first in this thread to respond as such. And I appreciate your take on the situation. But please lets not forget what I said on page one. There are people out there that insist that PC is precisely a self correcting circuit that adjusts for drift. As hard as I have tired to keep this conversation directed to answering this question, "What is PC". People want to bring it back to me being hung up on marketing. I am forced to repeat yet again that this thread is all about what PC is. In spite of a lot of back and forth here, I think, at least in this thread, that we are on our way to establishing that PC has everything to do with being able to stop the travel of the 3pt at some point repeatedly.

With regards to the GC1710, It is my beliefe as it stands right now that the GC can do this, as demonstrated. But I will be getting back to the dealer to have another look at it just to make sure I have dotted the I's and crossed the T's. But it's how we talk about PC that really matters here. Because again, The GC can't be both NON PC and PC at the same time.

 

[aczlan]

I will be making a return trip to the dealer to verify this very thing. But until that time, which will be soon I hope, here is what my experience was with the GC1710. The dealer had a tiller on the 3pt hitch. The lever has no center position. It has an fully up position, and a fully down position. Anyplace you stop the lever between the FU and FD positions will stop the 3pt at some corresponding position. The dealer demonstrated how i would go about adjusting the depth the tiller would dig by placing the lever at some point above the FD position. He demonstrated full up, full down, and then demonstrated setting the height at some place in between. Just by placing the lever. SOOOO, If I were to make a sharpy tic mark on the fender slot that the lever travels through, and I moved the lever to that mark over and over, I would expect that the tiller would come to approximately the same height every time. How accurately? That I don't know. But the JD excerpt you posted said.

If that is the case, it has PC. No two ways about it.

The quarter inching valve as demonstrated in the kubota video that I posted relied on "Detents" that you were supposed to tap in order to get the quarter inch effect. You mentioned that the GC seems to have a quarter inching valve. If it does, and it may, it does not at all function like the kubota. As demonstrated in the video. The GC has a lever that moves to any position you put it, and stays. So does the 3pt hitch. So if the GC has a quarter inching valve, well, we will see when I go back out to the dealer how it plays out. But having seen the tiller demonstration, I think I know where it will end up.

That was based on the exploded parts diagram. It is possible that it has some sort of internal feedback mechanism not shown in that particular diagram.

Aaron Z

 

[J_J]

Just who is the one to educate all of us on the subject of PC, it is self explanatory.

Yep, you are so right. There in no more to be said about PC.

 

[uglyboywith11fingers]

In spite of a lot of back and forth here, I think, at least in this thread, that we are on our way to establishing that PC has everything to do with being able to stop the travel of the 3pt at some point repeatedly.

On our way ??? I think most of us were already there on page 1 of this thread.

Pete

 

[Reyer Farms]

I have enjoyed the thread. My knowledge is based on what I have run. I think that I'm more uncertain now about the position control than ever before.