Demise of the Polo Ponies

   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #11  
<font color=red>There isn't a one ton truck around that is certified to tow eleven horses. Eleven horses plus trailer and supplies could easily be 18,000 - 20,000 pounds. Depending on config, one ton pickups s are only rated to tow around 13,000.

<font color=black>I thought that 3/4 ton trucks or 1 ton truck with a 5th wheel or gooseneck adapter can pull up to 25k? Or am I mistaken. I saw this info ( I think ) on the drawtite hitch site showing what vehicles with what hitch will pull what weight.


Soundguy
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #12  
I did a check of the Ford, Chevy and Dodge sites and the maximum trailer weight their pickups can tow are;

Chevy - 16,100 lbs
Ford - 14,500 lbs
Dodge - Couldn't easily find the specs.

The 25,000 lbs is what the Drawtite hitch can handle (it's on my gooseneck hitch) which doesn't mean that's what the vehicle can handle.
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #13  
These figures are correct, but misleading.

They are calculated by using the truck with the highest CGVWR (combined gross vehicle weight rating), which is a one ton dually 2WD regular cab truck with the BASE engine. No 4x4. No crew cab. No heavy big block or even worse a very heavy diesel engine, etc. These heavy options really cut into the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating (total weight of truck and it's payload) and the CGVWR (combination of truck, its payload AND the total weight of anything being towed).

These days, you hardly see a new one ton truck that's not configured with 4x4, diesel and crew cab. This is especially true for folks that are hauling horses - the diesel and 4x4 are pretty much a "must have". These options push the empty weight of a Ford truck to about 7500 lbs. With all of these heavy options cutting into the available payload, it's possible to have a 3/4 ton truck with a 1,500 pound payload - that's smaller than some half ton trucks!

And if the truck was a SRW (single rear wheel) truck, you can forget about getting anywhere near the CGVWR as the rear axle and tires will be overloaded long before you get 13,000 of trailer on behind. I will say without hesitation that if the truck in question was a SRW, it was HUGELY, DANGEROUSLY, RIDICULOUSLY overloaded. And actually, the same is true even if it was a DRW unless it was an F550.

And you're exactly right, Mike - the rating of the hitch should be higher than the rating of the truck it's attached to for safety's sake, but that doesn't magically raise the rating of the truck.
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #14  
You are right about the weights.

Many years back I bought a '74 F100. I decided to have it weighed at the scales on the interstate. With a full tank of gas and two persons on board the difference between the actual weight and the GVW was 450 pounds! And they called them 1/2 ton pickups?
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #15  
I didn't think it magically raised any limits., It is just that we have many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks for our construction company, and I think you are undervalueing the weight they can legall and structurally pull. One of the big selling points on my new yukon was that it could tow 12k.

Our shop truck is an F-450 super duty, and its gvr is 15k ( cab / chassie.

Our shop is located by the interstate and 1tonsw/car haulers run up it all day, right thru the dot scales.. I'm sure if this was illegal, dot would have stopped them, as they will speed out of the dot median with lights and sirens for as little as marker lights being out, or no reflective tape...

Soundguy
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #16  
<font color=blue>One of the big selling points on my new yukon was that it could tow 12k.</font color=blue>

Soundguy, you might have confused towing capacity with Gross Combined Weight Rating, which is the maximum weight of the truck and trailer combined. I'm guessing, but I would imagine the GCWR of your Yukon is about 14 or 15K, which would leave you able to tow around 8K, depending on how heavy you have your truck loaded. Pickups are the only rigs that can tow more than 10K, because you have to go to a 5th wheel or gooseneck to tow more than 10K. (Unless, of course, your talking about heavy duty pintle type setups.)

Phantom 309, I totally agree with you on the fact the pickup was way overloaded. If you want to tow 20K with a pickup, that's a little like using a 30 hp Kubota to run a full size baler. It's true that diesel and big block engines weigh more than base engines and therefore detract from truck payloads, but the extra torque and horsepower allow them to tow much more than the base engine.
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #17  
That's not exactly true. You can haul more legally if you have a commercial tag on your pickup. You can tow up to 32,000 lbs. with a one ton pickup if you buy the tags and that is legally. All Ford does is set the warranty weight limit. The true limit these trucks can pull is much more. It's no different than the trucks come from the factory with 275 hp. You can put more hp on them and go up to 500 or 600 hp and you are still legal. Ford has nothing to do with legal load limits. That's set by the states.

The trucks can handle the higher weights without a problem. Soundguy is right on this. I used to haul my last trailer that was 17k with a single rear wheel pickup and never even reached the overload springs. I was perfectly legal as I had tags to haul a combined load of 30k. I have absolutely no problem stopping as the trailer brakes are rated to stop the trailer. I have seen this argument about how dangerous it is to be overloaded and it is simply not true.
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #18  
Just to play devil's advocate, if you are exceeding the manufacturer's weight rating and have an accident where someone dies, will your insurance cover you or are you on your own?
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #19  
Mfg. only sets the recommendations for warranty. The state sets the weights that you can pull. As long as you are within the load limits for your license your insurance is valid and there can be no extra liability or punitive charges.
 
   / Demise of the Polo Ponies #20  
You are right that the states do not enforce the manufacturers limits. But I can't agree with your logic that that means that it is perfectly OK to overload.

Tire manufacturers set load limits for their tires.

Axle manufacturers set load limits for their axles.

Truck manufacturers set load limits for their trucks.

But IMO, it doesn't make sense to say that since the state will allow me to purchase a tag for huge load, the load limits set by the manufacturers can be dismissed. Does the state know more about the product than the manufacturers?

Are the limits set by the manufacturers conservative? Certainly. They reduce their liability by rating their products conservatively. Prolly a good idea these days:

From a buddy of mine RE a similar discussion on another list:

As in all things, there are shades of gray. I am pretty strongly in favor of following the manufacturer's recs on most things, esp. weight limits. Often, these weight discussions pick apart something that is perhaps 500 lbs. overweight. While I personally wouldn't do it, I don't see much harm either. Then there are the situations where we're talking a couple of thousand pounds over and starting to push the limits of max axle and tire weights. Now, I start to get concerned. The somewhat arbitrary max weight that the manuf. puts on for towing or max combined weight can be argued with. The axle ratings, and very especially, the tire ratings cannot be safely pushed or argued with. The medium level overloaders are pushing those limits and reducing their margin of safety.

Now we come to your friend's situation. His is not a gray area or borderline situation. Quite simply put, he's reckless for even attempting it. It will be overloaded by probably any numbers applicable to the truck. The truck is only rated at 20K combined and the trailer ALONE is almost that. I am not impressed by what "hot shotters" and others are doing. People do all sorts of dangerous things, that doesn't mean we all have to do them.

I was thinking about this situation while writing this and it occurred to me that there is a potential (before y'all go ballistic, I said potential...) criminal aspect to some of these overloading situations. I am a prosecutor by trade. The veh. homicide law in my state has a "reckless" prong that includes speeding, driving drunk etc. I once prosecuted (successfully) a guy who killed 3 teenage passengers in his car. Speed was one factor, but his recklessness in choosing to drive on that particular road under foggy conditions, dark, etc... were all factors I used at trial. Prosecutors have a lot of leeway in how they charge something up. If a set of facts came across my desk where a person knowingly went charging down the road with such a grossly overloaded arrangement and killed somebody, I would definitely factor the purposeful overloading into my decisions. I don't foresee anybody charged up for just overloading, but in a bad enough circumstance, I don't see why not. Just looking at it as a prosecutor instead of an RV'r, it is clearly "reckless" by the legal definition of that word. I did take a quick scan of the legal database and there is at least one case where a truck, overloaded with gravel, went through a stop sign and plastered somebody. The overloading was used as a factor. I'm not trying to scare anybody, nor am I under any delusions that the folks towing overloaded are going to "lighten up." Just some "thinkin' out loud" from an attorney. The fact is that in the legal world, at some point in the contiuum... an egregious enough situation CAN (not will... can...) move into the criminal arena.

Unless your friend lies to his dealer, he will be kissing his warranty goodbye as well. Tell your friend to get a medium duty truck like the F-550 or the FL 50-60. That trailer screams for such a truck.


So flagrant overloading can be an issue in criminal court. Guaranteed it can be in civil court. Good thing that the polo ponies were the only lives lost. They don't have lawyers.
 

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