Detergent vs. Non Detergent Oil
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ironnut
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Do you know what kind of oil it currently has in it? Non-detergent oil is not very common, so it likely had a detergent based oil in it. If that is true they use a detergent oil.
If it has non-detergent oil in it, it may be wise to continue to run non-detergent oil in it.
A long time ago (50+ years) a neighbor related a story about using the new fangled detergent oils. The tractor was a Farmall regular with a fair number of hours on it. Shortly after they started using the detergent oil a connecting rod bearing failed. It seems that the oil line that fed the connecting rod dipper pans clogged, starving the dipper pan. As the connecting rod turned the metal dipper on the rod cap would pass through this reservoir of oil in the dipper pan. The rapid passage of the dipper through the oil would force the oil through a small hole on the face of the dipper and into the rod bearing. With an empty trough, the oil supply to the rod bearing was greatly diminished and the rod bearing failed. It was reasoned that the source of the clogged passage was chunks of dirt that the detergent oil was loosening. Common wisdom back then, was that the bottom end of an engine need to be thoroughly cleaned before a detergent oil was used.
I suspect that your tractor has had detergent oil in it, though you may want to drop the oil pan and look at the inside of the crankcase. Assuming that the oil was changed with any regularity, the amount sludge in the crankcase will be minimal. If large amounts of slug are present, cleaning it out would be a good thing and using a non-detergent oil may be a good option.
On a personal note, I cleaned several large handfuls of sludge from the bottom of the oil pan on a Ford flat-head V8. The truck is a 1949 F-6 dump truck. I acquired the truck in 1992 and I don't believe it had run for at least 20 years. I choose to run a detergent based oil in it as I was reasonably sure that the previous owner(s) had used detergent oils despite the large amount of sludge in the oil pan. I still have the truck and it still has all of its rod bearings. I even start it up now and then and use it.
gordon
If it has non-detergent oil in it, it may be wise to continue to run non-detergent oil in it.
A long time ago (50+ years) a neighbor related a story about using the new fangled detergent oils. The tractor was a Farmall regular with a fair number of hours on it. Shortly after they started using the detergent oil a connecting rod bearing failed. It seems that the oil line that fed the connecting rod dipper pans clogged, starving the dipper pan. As the connecting rod turned the metal dipper on the rod cap would pass through this reservoir of oil in the dipper pan. The rapid passage of the dipper through the oil would force the oil through a small hole on the face of the dipper and into the rod bearing. With an empty trough, the oil supply to the rod bearing was greatly diminished and the rod bearing failed. It was reasoned that the source of the clogged passage was chunks of dirt that the detergent oil was loosening. Common wisdom back then, was that the bottom end of an engine need to be thoroughly cleaned before a detergent oil was used.
I suspect that your tractor has had detergent oil in it, though you may want to drop the oil pan and look at the inside of the crankcase. Assuming that the oil was changed with any regularity, the amount sludge in the crankcase will be minimal. If large amounts of slug are present, cleaning it out would be a good thing and using a non-detergent oil may be a good option.
On a personal note, I cleaned several large handfuls of sludge from the bottom of the oil pan on a Ford flat-head V8. The truck is a 1949 F-6 dump truck. I acquired the truck in 1992 and I don't believe it had run for at least 20 years. I choose to run a detergent based oil in it as I was reasonably sure that the previous owner(s) had used detergent oils despite the large amount of sludge in the oil pan. I still have the truck and it still has all of its rod bearings. I even start it up now and then and use it.
gordon
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it's not wise to continue running a non detergent oil.
non detergent oils are for machines with no oil filter.
detergents suspend particles to be trapped into the oil filter.
low tech gas engine on small lawnmowers,a nd air compressor sumps with no filters get no detergents to keep the particles from being suspended, and rather to let them settle safely and not get into bearings.. etc.
I re-work PLENTY of antique tractors.
I don't care what was in it when i got it.. it gets 15w40 in it afterwards once I'm done, with some very, very limited exceptions.
depending on what the drainings look like, is how drastic a cleaning I do.
if it drains out like tar, then it gets a flush... 4 qts walmart 10w30 and a quart of f-atf fluid, plus a 2.99$ walmart filter... run till well warmed up, then drain.. after that, another new filter and real oil.
if you feel sludge at the bung drain.. i'd encourage you to drop the pan perhaps and clean it.. cost is time and a pan gasket.. also lets you look at the bottom of the engine...
I do similar with the tranny and hyds and rear end sumps.. except they get a flush of diesel and atf, and if they have water in them.. diesel + atf + 90% alcohol...
soundguy
non detergent oils are for machines with no oil filter.
detergents suspend particles to be trapped into the oil filter.
low tech gas engine on small lawnmowers,a nd air compressor sumps with no filters get no detergents to keep the particles from being suspended, and rather to let them settle safely and not get into bearings.. etc.
I re-work PLENTY of antique tractors.
I don't care what was in it when i got it.. it gets 15w40 in it afterwards once I'm done, with some very, very limited exceptions.
depending on what the drainings look like, is how drastic a cleaning I do.
if it drains out like tar, then it gets a flush... 4 qts walmart 10w30 and a quart of f-atf fluid, plus a 2.99$ walmart filter... run till well warmed up, then drain.. after that, another new filter and real oil.
if you feel sludge at the bung drain.. i'd encourage you to drop the pan perhaps and clean it.. cost is time and a pan gasket.. also lets you look at the bottom of the engine...
I do similar with the tranny and hyds and rear end sumps.. except they get a flush of diesel and atf, and if they have water in them.. diesel + atf + 90% alcohol...
soundguy
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Soundguy,
I can understand the ratio on flushing the engine, but what is the ratio of diesel +atf +90% alcohol in hydraulics? Just curious...
Soundguy
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i usually go gallon quart pint.
on a 5g sump I use 2g diesel, 2 qts atf, and 2 pints 90% ra
agitate... let set.. agitate some more.. drain.. etc...
ultrarunner
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I have several vintage Fords and have worked on hundreds the last 40 years.
The rule we use is a fresh rebuild with an aftermarket oil filter gets modern oil...
An old barn find with unknown oil get non-detergent and we carry it at the shop.
Still remember the guy that changed the oil in a sweet running 1933 Ford he had bought after sitting decades in a barn...
The detergent loosend everything and plugged the oil passages causing bearing failure...
The rule we use is a fresh rebuild with an aftermarket oil filter gets modern oil...
An old barn find with unknown oil get non-detergent and we carry it at the shop.
Still remember the guy that changed the oil in a sweet running 1933 Ford he had bought after sitting decades in a barn...
The detergent loosend everything and plugged the oil passages causing bearing failure...
Soundguy
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running it on 100 year old oil technology is not the answer.
cleaning the engine out, in stages, if needed, is the answer.
there is so much better oil, multi vis.. better adds, available today.
if you think you've got a sludgy one.. why keep adding to the sludge.... start cleaning it.
start swapping our 25% of it's oil change with atf fluid.. or even modern multi vis to start getting some detergent action going....
and just keep doing this in stages, repalcingthe oil filter in between oil changes.
it ain't rocket science.. it's just science.. and science from 1950 at that!!
soundguy
cleaning the engine out, in stages, if needed, is the answer.
there is so much better oil, multi vis.. better adds, available today.
if you think you've got a sludgy one.. why keep adding to the sludge.... start cleaning it.
start swapping our 25% of it's oil change with atf fluid.. or even modern multi vis to start getting some detergent action going....
and just keep doing this in stages, repalcingthe oil filter in between oil changes.
it ain't rocket science.. it's just science.. and science from 1950 at that!!
soundguy
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We all run modern oils when we add the aftermarket spin on oil filter kit on a fresh rebuild.
Have to remember some of these motors have not been open for 50, 60 or even 70 years...
Oil flow to the babbitt bearings is dipper for the rods and gravity to the mains on the early motors with the next version having dipper for the rods and 3 psi though an oil gallery to the mains...
Modern oil/atf etc will quickly put lots of sludge into suspension and without a filter to catch it... it could end up in the wrong place...
With non-detergent, sludge collects at the bottom of the pan where it can do little harm...
Years ago, I contacted the API and several manufacturers like the Shell Rotella folks about using modern oil in a Ford engine that had a lifetime on non-detergent use... the responses were all the same... they could not endorse it without a complete cleaning... dropping the pan and taking off the valve cover plate...
Have to remember some of these motors have not been open for 50, 60 or even 70 years...
Oil flow to the babbitt bearings is dipper for the rods and gravity to the mains on the early motors with the next version having dipper for the rods and 3 psi though an oil gallery to the mains...
Modern oil/atf etc will quickly put lots of sludge into suspension and without a filter to catch it... it could end up in the wrong place...
With non-detergent, sludge collects at the bottom of the pan where it can do little harm...
Years ago, I contacted the API and several manufacturers like the Shell Rotella folks about using modern oil in a Ford engine that had a lifetime on non-detergent use... the responses were all the same... they could not endorse it without a complete cleaning... dropping the pan and taking off the valve cover plate...
ultrarunner
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Soundguy
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you did the right thing for that ford.
I must have 20 of them oin the barn.. all different color and flavor.. all on detergent or high detergent oil.
many I did sever flushes on to get tar out.. manyt I dropped pans and cleaned blocks.
never a problem going with the 70 year newer oil technology.
yeah. I've heard a *few* stories over the years.. my sisters brothers girlfriends roomate knew a guy who's dad had a truck that someone else rode in.. well that rider had a tractor that broke down after an oil change.. must have been that darned new oil..
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The shop where I worked during High School rebuilt Ford motors with poured babbit bearings... mostly for the Model A and T guys... also some for Ford Tractors...
Some of the engines that came in had animals nesting in the block... others, no telling what they had been running for oil.
Still others look good with good compression with shot bearings and the dippers plugged solid...
Without a filter... all the sludge has to go somewhere if it gets back into suspension.
On my own engines... I wouldn't run detergent till I dropped the pan and removed the valve cover to give everything a thorough cleaning.
The shop owner had nothing to gain by telling people to be careful with oil... actually preventing bearing problems was bad for business...
Some of the engines that came in had animals nesting in the block... others, no telling what they had been running for oil.
Still others look good with good compression with shot bearings and the dippers plugged solid...
Without a filter... all the sludge has to go somewhere if it gets back into suspension.
On my own engines... I wouldn't run detergent till I dropped the pan and removed the valve cover to give everything a thorough cleaning.
The shop owner had nothing to gain by telling people to be careful with oil... actually preventing bearing problems was bad for business...
Soundguy
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not even remotely related.
engines that have been setting open OBVIOUSLY have to be taken down and tanked before use... not even related to this discussion ...
ford tractors HAVE OIL FILTERS
N series 39-52 use a napa 1010G
53-64 use either a 1452 if a spin on or a ch6pl if a canister.
65+ you still see the 1452 spin on used, as well as another canister.. a ch14pl I believe..
thus.. again.. NOT related to this discussion, as the machine in question left the factory with an oil filter!
pulling valve covers on an N don't gain ya much unless you want to squirt some atf fluid on a sticky valve stem.. or see if they are moving when you roll the crank over..
also not related to this thread.
soundguy
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The title of this thread is Detergent vs Non Detergent Oil...
Don't see how shop experience resurrection old Ford engines wouldn't be relevant to the discussion...
As mentioned... procedure varied depending upon the presence of oil filtration.
Thank you for clarifying.
Don't see how shop experience resurrection old Ford engines wouldn't be relevant to the discussion...
As mentioned... procedure varied depending upon the presence of oil filtration.
Thank you for clarifying.
Soundguy
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the topic is d/v/nd for his mentioned, ford NAA, which has filtration..... thus no variance ??? done deal...
ultrarunner
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Soundguy
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ALL FORD TRACTORS left the factory with an oil filter!?! That's my point.. the argument was a useless waste of bandwidth!?!? i stated as much starting in post 3, calling for change and new fitler.. then 8, then 14.. etc.. etc..
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I've got a Model F motor under the bench that definitely didn't come with a filter... it has sump screen... no filter.
I think we are in agreement as to the filter/no filter and detergent vs non-detergent...
The antique engines I have date from 1905 to 1950.
The Fords from 1911 though the early 30's don't have oil filters unless after market...
The 1905 Olds doesn't even have a crankcase... oil just drips on the bearings and then onto the road.
Can't we both be right?
It is important to point out in any discussion that while modern oils are vastly superior in many ways... they are not better when it comes to flat tappet engines because zinc is no longer part of the formula. Modern oils are murder on a flat tappet engine.
Zinc was removed because it caused catalytic converter problems.
The best ZDDP replacement I've come across is the GM EOS (engine oil supplement) you can get from a Chevy dealer... and my Fords motors like it...
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Seems to me that a thread referencing a newly purchased NAA shouldn't have a lot of room for theoretical discussions about engines designed 40 or 50 years prior that are totally lacking in filtration equipment. NAA's don't have babbitt bearings or use unfiltered splash lubrication. Why are those design features a part of this thread?
If the darn thing is so coked up that a dose of detergent oil and a clean filter causes a major mechanical failure, it was probably going to happen anyway.
If the darn thing is so coked up that a dose of detergent oil and a clean filter causes a major mechanical failure, it was probably going to happen anyway.
