Did you know Roundup Ready sweet corn is now available?

[daugen]

what we lack is the shared vision of what is worthy to create

That vision today on production farms is shaped and maintained by chemical companies' yield charts
and bottom line prognostications. And sadly likely reality.
Now many of us have small farms and gardens and we really can control our destiny to some degree.
I'm on my second year of a large to me organic garden and boy is it hard just not to default to drowning everything
in Miracle Grow, which my wife is highly in favor of.

No, I'm off to the feed mill today to find some overly expensive organic bags of who knows what to pack in around the plants.
And GardenTone, should buy stock in that company. I may be a chump for believing this but if it says organic on the box/bag,
I'm usually satisfied. Last year we didn't spray at all and every one of our melons were lost to bugs. Lots of Organic Bob's spray this
year. I planted a lot of pumpkins too last year and they were bug food too. So clearly doing nothing is not a solution.

My vision is simple. And easy. It is controlled by my loving sister who has been organic all her life and would peck at me constantly if I dumped traditional
chemicals in the veggie garden she likes to come raid. So to please her, and not such a bad idea for myself either..., I will continue to
"do organic' despite the perfection touted on the Ortho bags... I've eaten a worm before, well, luckily a little part of one, and it didn't kill me.
I'm more worried about the "cure" here.

We aren't doing seeds this year so I am at the mercy of whatever GMO plants are sold to me. I mean, you think a Big Boy is now really Big Boy version 35?
I'd sure support better marking on these plants so I could hopefully have a choice, but likely just confirm my worst fears. All your tomatoes sir are now
at least version 30...

 

[super55]

I have an issue with everyone saying that farmers using herbicides is completely economically driven. To a degree it is. When all your income sits out in a field and is dictated on weather, drought, bushels per acre and the fluctuating price on the grain index you would try and get as much dollar per acre as possible with the least amount of cost because next year might not be so good.

But the other side of the coin, Most long term successful farmers are extremely good stewards of their soil. Now before people go and crucify me and say you can't be a good steward if using chemicals let me explain. A piece of land is as only good as it's topsoil and every farmer knows this and modern farming techniques correlate to that. No-till farming (no plowing/discing) didn't really take off until glyphosate and RR crops appeared. This no-till practice allows minimal degradation of the topsoil, keeps organic matter % up, retains water, holds chemicals/fertilizers better, prevents run-off and reduces hard-panning. RR seed can cost 2-3 times what conventional corn seed cost so this aspect negates economic factors unless you figure in the price of diesel/time of plowing,discing, cultivating.

Roundup has shown to be the cheapest, least environmentally impacting and to a certain degree effective herbicide for farmers. The stuff has been around for 30 years with multiple test by a multitude of organizations and the EPA reduced from a class C to D carcinogen. Meaning it went from a possible human carcinogen to basic not enough data to support carcinogen. The surfactant (similar to dishsoap) of used with it has shown a higher enviromental impact.

In the produce industry it is consumer driven, The farmer is just providing us what we want. Whats the first thing we do when we buy a bag of apples? Look at the price, size, shininess, and for bruises on the apples. Even if farmers wanted to transfer to 100% organically certified they usually can't because it takes 15 years of no pesticides on the land before the FDA will let you label it organic. Until then the pest you can do is label it pesticide free. A perfect example of farmers adjusting to the consumers demand is free range chickens/eggs.

 

[DFB]

NOP standards require a 3 year transition period

205.202 Land requirements.

Any field or farm parcel from which harvested crops are intended to be sold, labeled, or represented as "organic", must:

(a) Have been managed in accordance with the provisions of sec. 205.203 through 205.206;

(b) Have had no prohibited substances, as listed in sec. 205.105, applied to it for a period of 3 years immediately preceding harvest of the crop; and

(c) Have distinct, defined boundaries and buffer zones such as runoff diversions to prevent the unintended application of a prohibited substance to the crop or contact with a prohibited substance applied to adjoining land that is not under organic management.



Most farmers I know are good land stewards too. Erosion control through low till/no till are all sound enviromental practices. To much topsoil has been lost to erosion. But I think it goes without saying there is a huge connection between modern seed/crop engineering, synthetic chemical promotion and corporate profits.

There's no doubt a Farmer should give the people what they want.

Many people today are both highly educated and concerned enough to want to be informed of both the health and nutritional benefits in their choices. As of right now knowing if FOOD contains GM products is a big thing. 37 states are considering labeling laws and all the New England states have introduced bills into legislation already. I am constantly questioned in my current postion as to the type of farming inputs at the both the orchard and in all the produce we sell at the farmers market and the farm stand. One woman lived close to 2 miles away and was concerned if our spray program would effect her honeybees. Currently Neo-Nicotinoid insecticides are are being looked at as the cause in the increase of honeybee die offs. (For the record its nothing we use)

For 25 years I worked along side my FIL and I watched as his direct market consumer base asked more and more questions about his farming style. Wholesale end customers such as colleges, schools, hospitals, and restaurants were also seeking alternatives choices too. Strictly conventional he was, major wholesale producer...all synthetic fertilizers, herbicides, insecticide, fungicides, hybrid varieties grown for maximum yield and profitability over flavor or substance especially the tomatoes. No organic inputs. Land was at premium so none was ever taken out of production. Just crop variety rotations. That was his generation's approach. Was he wrong? No personally I dont think so. He was doing just what he was being instructed to do. But hey we learn as we go. On the other hand I wanted more of another direction with my own business endeavors to meet that new found customer demand of low chemical inputs and mostly organic practices but never went far enough to get certification though I seriously looked into it at one time. I still use synthetic granular fertilizers. I dont find organic blends cost effective and I am especially fond of water soluble fertigation like we use at the greenhouse. I don't use any herbicide except for Omri approved Scythe (Pelagoric Acid). Plus 2 Omri approved insecticides and an copper based fungicide. Just my convictions

Thumbing thru my 2013 New England Vegetable Management guide today there are 56 available Herbicides listed for crop use. 7 are federally restricted and 10 have specific state restrictions. There are a total of 155 Insectides. Of those 122 are synthetics and 58 are on the federal restricted user list. 22 are biorationals and 11 biological. 13 have OMRI (organic) approval. Fungicides...there are 91 of them. 28 are biorationals (mineral) and 23 biological (living organism) the rest are synthetics. Plus there's 3 soil fumingants (1 federally restricted). So what is that alltogether...305? And they just keep making new ones every year wow!

Now look at all the different seed designations also available. There are are Heirloom, Open Pollinated, F1 & F2 Hybrids, and Genetically Modified. Corn and cucumbers have subclass traits like monoecious and genoecious and parthenocarpic for cukes and SE, SU, SH, SH2, Synergistic and GM for corn. Of course hybridized tomatoes offer varying disease resistant characteristics such as AL,TMV,FOR,PI,M, V. Heirlooms are open pollinated varities but not all open polinated varities are Heirlooms. True Heirlooms normally can trace a documented history over many generations. Plants grown from open pollinated seeds comeback true to the parent plant. Hybrids arent GMO's either they are just cross breeding between similar cultivars to achieve desirable traits or growing characteristics. Neither is a fungicide or insecticide seed treatment a GMO. Normally seeds saved from hybrid dont grow back the same and usually revert more to one of the parent cross varities. I like growing hybridized varities without them I dont think I could ever grow a large Italian style eggplant in my part of Vermont with an open pollinated variety. Not without using a tunnel house anyways, the difference being easily a month or more between maturities is critical when you only have approx 3 months growing time.

GMO's on the other hand carry traits from genetically different varieties. The technology merges different combinations of plant, bacterial or viral genes that cannot occur in nature. The DNA sequencing could never happen naturally thru normal cross breeding selection.

As far as I know there are only 7 major crops grown in the US that are true GMO technology (gene insertion). There was once a tomato the Flavr Saver I remember that and a potato but both seem to be off the market now. I believe there is a variety of rice being grown overseas too.

The 7 include Soybean, Sugarbeet, Canola, Corn, Cotton, Alfalfa, Papya, Yellow Squash and Zucchini.
The squashes are called transgenic and have a masking gene for disease (virus) control. I've grown that type before. You have to sign a technology stewardship agreement in order to buy the seeds. A squash TSA


Verified products (as of December 2011):

Alfalfa (first planting 2011)
Canola (approx. 90% of U.S. crop)
Corn (approx. 88% of U.S. crop in 2011)
Cotton (approx. 90% of U.S. crop in 2011)
Papaya (most of Hawaiian crop; approximately 988 acres)
Soy (approx. 94% of U.S. crop in 2011)
Sugar Beets (approx. 95% of U.S. crop in 2010)
Zucchini and Yellow Summer Squash (approx. 25,000 acres)

Can you tell I like talking about this

 

[Barry 1]

I just saw where Dow created a new Frankencorn that they are going to hose down with 2,4-D and the EPA approved the use of 2,4-D on it a year ago.Too many weeds have become resistant to Roundup. The seeds were supposed to be approved this year,but it was put off till next year. People are calling it "Agent Orange"corn Hope it NEVER gets approved

 

[MacLawn]

super, I think you're right, but the first thing I look for in produce is Grown in USA - I ain't buying nary Chinese apples! Sorry Jack from northwest of Shanghai, but I wan USA grown foods!

 

[dave1949]

I appreciate Super55 and DFB sharing their first-hand experiences with food production and marketing.

I sometimes wonder if food producers in general are too complacent, perhaps not by choice. What practices would they follow if there were no economic pressures bearing down on them? That is where I think farms may be dictated to by economics.

I can recall the transitions that farms went through in NW Ohio from the 1950's through the 1980's. If history is any guide, the transitions will continue. If asked, what would a typical farmer say about the way they would be like to be farming 10 to 30 years from now?

 

[DFB]

I sometimes wonder if food producers in general are too complacent, perhaps not by choice. What practices would they follow if there were no economic pressures bearing down on them? That is where I think farms may be dictated to by economics.

If asked, what would a typical farmer say about the way they would be like to be farming 10 to 30 years from now?

Dave I wonder are there any simple answers. I dont think you can eliminate the economic pressure when it comes to farming. No matter which type of farming you do the inputs are generally the same. It's a financial investment of seed, fertilizer, equipment, labor, energy and whatever other costs specific to that product being produced along with inherent risks such as insect pressure, weed growth competition, and the uncontrolled weather and other natural disasters along with a capitalist type market supply and demand of a perishable, limited life span product. Effective pesticide use, controlled labor inputs, contract growing, and crop insurance would eliminate some of that risk. Hmm that sounds familair.

And just what is a typical farmer? Different areas of the country lend themselves to different crops and approaches. Soils vary. Farms in the Northeast it seems to me are generally smaller and more sustainably diversified. Then there is large scale commodity growing typical found in the midwest. California and its extensions into Mexico are different yet. Huge farms with monoculture crops and extensive labor force. The Northwest or Southeast different again

I have heard this before where the average age of "farmers" was like somewhere in their mid to late 50's so I dont even know if many would even give much thought to your question but I can say that here in the Northeast there seems to be a whole new generation of young people that want to farm. Many seek to intern and to learn then look to do something for themselves after graduation. Its tough to get land so there are programs to try and connect those looking for opportunities with aging farm holders. The ever growing popularity of community supported agriculture coupled with the technological advances of high tunnels use as season extenders and 4 season cropping, plus a year round demand for local, fresh, and sustainable looks pretty promising.

Off topic: Dave I'm curious to whereabouts in Maine is Industry? I was in Gorham. One of the best field trips I had was to go to Johnny Seed's experimental research farm in Albion

 

[arrow]

Roundup has shown to be the cheapest, least environmentally impacting and to a certain degree effective herbicide for farmers. The stuff has been around for 30 years with multiple test by a multitude of organizations and the EPA reduced from a class C to D carcinogen. Meaning it went from a possible human carcinogen to basic not enough data to support carcinogen. The surfactant (similar to dishsoap) of used with it has shown a higher enviromental impact.

I.

This is the basic tenant of allowing any type of chemical introduction to our food source. How long did it take before cigarettes were found to be harmful? There is a question mark about cell phones but ask a brain surgeon if he or she allows their kids to use them. Will we know a definitive answer 40 or 50 years from now about them? Cancer is a genetic mis step. What we think feeds a cancer has little to do to what causes it and if there are simply "question marks" as to what can cause it, then it is full steam ahead for just the way we always do it for the economies sake. Corporate america has run this way for decades. Why change a proven game plan? Free range chickens? All a farmer has to do there is provide an access door. Whether the chickens actually "free range" is up to them but this is just another example of how the FDA can manipulate a situation while not effecting "an economy". While we are on the subject of manipulation, remember the "Farm Act"? Look at the government subsidies for commodity crops. For a dollar at the super market you can buy 1200 calories of corn but only 250 calories of carrots. Maybe it is a help to the human race if we die earlier than we are supposed to in order to make room for the future hoards of our species. "Bartender! another scotch and Round Up please"

 

[super55]

DHB

Thanks for clearing that up only 3 years chemical free to be certified organic. I honestly thought it was 15 and apologize for disseminating false information. Excellent post describing the difference between hybrid, coated, and GMO seeds.

Farming is a constantly evolving industry. A lot of farmers are going back to tried and tested ways of weed management/soil amending by planting cover crops or complimentary crops along with their cash crops. A lot of research is being done using cover crops than using a weed crimper and than planting corn or soybeans. It is becoming a more attractive option as fertilizer price (directly correlates with oil prices) continues to go up.

The issue is a lot of these farms are so large now that they just can't simply get a cover crop in the ground in time. A farmer that has 3 days of planting can much more easily utilize this technique than one that has 3 weeks. Farmers often say it's too wet in the spring, too dry in the summer and too wet in the fall. You get some less than ideal weather and your planting window shrinks even more. Smaller scale farming could alleviate this but with prime ag land going for 8 grand an acre/500 ac lease trying to break into the farm biz without already being established is pretty difficult or at least until the ag land bubble burst.

Some alternative organic herbicides are available such as vinegar and citrus oil but cost wise and the amount of gallons per acre of product and water needed, involuntary crop damage still make this economically/physically impractical for large scale farming at this time. Plus applying a highly acidic chemical will alter soil ph thus reducing nutrient uptake by the plants and will eventually require liming to get back into an ideal ph. These are even newer farming practices so who knows if these products also will effect long term microorganism levels or if humans/nature will eventually create vinegar resistant crops. I'm sure as big as the organic side is going that there are people right now trying to develop seeds resistant to "natural" remedies. If they ever do become available would people condone organic farmers who would use them?

 

[super55]

I just saw where Dow created a new Frankencorn that they are going to hose down with 2,4-D and the EPA approved the use of 2,4-D on it a year ago.Too many weeds have become resistant to Roundup. The seeds were supposed to be approved this year,but it was put off till next year. People are calling it "Agent Orange"corn Hope it NEVER gets approved

Could you post the link on this? The reason I am asking is because some of the facts in your statement is flawed. I'm not saying it isn't true but 2,4-D (which was a chemical molecule in agent orange but not the complete forumation) has been used on corn for the last 50 years. It's a broadleaf herbicide and corn (which is a fescue) is completely immune to except for in its early 2-3 leaf stage. It is no longer used nearly as widely though because of roundup unless there is a pigweed problem. (Pigweed in some places has developed a resistance to glyphosate in some places due to overuse) and yes it is often used on sweetcorn for those who are wondering.

Cheers Arrow:drink: While we have that scotch and roundup might as well throw a shot of 2,4-D in for a chaser.