Oil & Fuel Diesel torque difference mostly myth?

   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #71  
I think torque is completely irrelevant, but everyone else will disagree with me. Power is the only thing we really care about. You can hang a 1000 lb weight on the end of a fixed beam that's 10 feet long, and you get 10000 ft-lbs of torque. But guess what, it's not moving, so there's zero power. Zero power means zero work is done, and if zero work is done, well, then nothing gets acomplished. Both power and force (torque is rotational force) are required to do work and create an energy differential.

Here's a simple example. Say you have two engines, one is gas, and one is diesel. Both engines are the same displacement, although the bores and strokes can be different. The diesel engine has a specifc torque curve which can be measured on a dyno. The gas engine is designed so that the gas engine's valve timing and ignition timing and fuel maps generate a torque curve which is *EXACTLY* the same as the diesel engine at any given shaft speed. Both engines now produce the same torque curve and the same power curve, so what's the difference? Well, the diesel engine uses alot less fuel than the gas engine, and that's the only real advantage. Maybe it can be argued that the diesel is heavier duty and will therefore last longer, but that's debatable I guess. Now, my example is never going to happen in real life, so please don't misundrestand me, it's only an example.

The reason diesels tow mow with less downshifting is because they have more low speed power and low speed torque than the typical gas engine.

To defend my statement that torque is irrelevant, I pose this argument. Drag force on airplanes, drag force on boats, drag on cars/trucks, etc, are all rated in power consumed. Some will say drag is based on a known force at a given speed, but when you have both speed and force, that's power. Look at a hydraulic system. A hydraulic pump at any given input speed produces a certain flow rate at a certain pressure. Flow is speed and pressure is force, and that's power. An electric motor requires a current and a voltage to operate. Current is the speed component, and voltage is the force component, and the two make power. Also look at a turbine engine. Say the typical fixed speed industrial turbine engine may produce 2,000 hp at 35,000 RPM. Using our forumla (available all over the internet) T=P*5252/RPM we get that the torque produced by the 2000 hp engine is only 300 ft-lbs. Doesn't sound like it will do much work, but in fact, these types of engines propel tanks and ships and trains and lots of other vehicles with ease, all that's required is gear reduction. I guess I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop now.
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #72  
Torque means less to me also. One thing about a diesel that's just wonderful is that you never have to worry about the associated problems of leaving diesel fuel in your system for long periods of times without running the engine. It's going to start up.
Often, you leave gas in the system and you're going to get enough varnishing that you'll have to clean everything before it's going to start again.
I've used both gas and diesel tractors, and would NEVER consider owning a gas model again. Torque or not torque. I CURVE to the diesel. John
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #73  
300 ft/lbs at 35,000 rpm is an insane amount of torque. As youstated it requires a gear reduction, and subsiquent torque multiplication. Simply stated:

35k rpm = 300 ft/lbs
17500 rpm = 600 ft/bls
8750 rpm = 1200 ft/lbs
4375 rpm = 2400 ft/lbs
2188 rpm = 4800 ft/lbs

Of course there is some loss in the gearing, but you get my point.
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #74  
Interesting thread! I think you & AARDVARK & others are getting to the heart of it. HP is a measure of work, torque is (almost) meaningless. A 20hp gas engine will do the same work as a 20hp diesel, or a 20hp engine that runs on bananas - in a steady-state sense. It's the transient response that's a problem. If you load it suddenly, the RPMs will drop a bit, and then the engine with a flatter torque curve (which will also have a flatter hp curve) will be superior. BUT - the difference between diesel and gas may not be anywhere as big as people assume, because we get fooled by the other differences in engine design. Sure, a really big engine that only puts out 20hp is going to have a fat torqure curve compared to a little one that puts out 20hp, but that's true no matter what you run it on. You'd have to look at engines with as much of those things removed from the picture (like similar displacements, bore/stroke ratio, cam timing, etc.) to be able to compare the two fuels. I think you'd get down to the fact that diesel has more energy, and will always be a bit more effecient, and I think it does lend itself to better low end torque, but as you say, it's not as extreme as it seems.

A couple of other things:

1. Long stroke has nothing to do with compression ratio.

2. A big bore/short stroke engine develops higher PEAK torque throughout the crankshaft rotation than a long stroker (for the same diplacement). Remember it's a pneumatic cylinder, and big bore = more force. But it falls off faster as the piston moves away from TDC.

3. If you run an engine that's half the size at twice the RPM, you have the same swept volume per second, and you're using the same amount of fuel. You can't carry that to extremes though, as volumetric efficiency will get in the way, but with tractor engines....

4. Don't assume that high RPMs = shorter life & more wear. If the engine is designed for it, it's not a problem. Usually, a high RPM engine will have a shorter stroke, so piston speeds don't have to be higher. If you shorten the stroke, you usually don't have to shorten the con rod proportionately, so the rod length to stroke ratio is better. This means the max angle of the rod towards the cylinder wall is lower, which causes less wear. If you design the bearing diameters, oil & water pumps, etc. for higher RPMS, it won't be stressed any more than a low RPM design.

Lastly, smaller engines = lower weight = lower shipping costs = lower cost to us. And pretty soon, big fuel costs are gonna make those shipping costs even higher!
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #75  
I agree, 300 ft-lbs at 35000 RPM is a huge number, but comparing it to the 540 (or whatever number was put out) that the Cummins diesel makes, it looks less capable /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #76  
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the other thing that I want to point out is the whole "shorter stoke means lower piston speeds and higher RPM" ideal. Piston speed is determined by the head, intake, and valve timing. The piston can only move away from the combistion chamber at a rate which would allow the induction path to fill the cylinder without causing a large pressure decrease inside the cylindre during the intake cycle. As the piston moves away from the head, it sucks air through the intake. The faster the piston moves the more vacuum it will create and the faster the air flows through the intake. This vacuum is really just low pressure. The pressure in the cylinder as the piston moves is determined by the intake characteristics. The free-er flowing the intake system, the faster the piston can move before it hits the wall of low cylinder pressure which keeps the piston from moving any faster. Or course valve timing has alot to do with this. Piston speed is completely independant of crank speed, however crank speed is completely dependant on piston speed, which depends on induction characteristics.

Say we have a constant piston speed, and two different engines. The engine with a 4" stroke would require twice the time to go from top dead center to bottom dead center as an engine with a 2" stroke. This time from TDC to BDC is based soley on piston speed and distance, and that distance is determined by the crank's stroke length. The part where people get confused, is they begin to think that the crank pulls the piston along, and the crank determines the piston speed. In actuality it's the opposite. The piston speed pushes the crank along and controls the shaft speed. The shaft speed is ultimately controlled by the induction cycle.

Maybe I'm getting off ona tangent here again though.
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #77  
You're right, the low pressure does hold back the piston. But for the same displacement, the longer stroke engine has a smaller bore, so while the 4" stroker might be going a longer distance, it is uncovering less volume for each bit of movement it makes. The situation on the suction side is the same as on the pressure side, I suspect, in that the peak "vacuum" may be a little different, but for the most part the bigger piston is offset by the longer lever arm.

Actually, I was more interested in the wear aspects of piston speed.
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #78  
<font color="blue"> I think torque is completely irrelevant, but everyone else will disagree with me...

...The reason diesels tow mow with less downshifting is because they have more low speed power and low speed torque than the typical gas engine.
</font>

AArdvark,

Sounds like even you disagrees with you! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #79  
<font color="blue"> An electric motor draws the most amps at zero RPM. </font>

Egon,

This is true if a motor is stalled and there are no external controls to control/limit armature current. A stalled motor armature then acts like a short circuit.

However, when one refers to full torque at zero RPM it implies there is some control in place to limit armature current to motor design limits, otherwise the motor would burn up, or the power source feeding it would experience difficulty... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What you said is perfectly correct for a motor applied across a fixed voltage source, which is what most of us would encounter around the house/farm/workshop... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Diesel torque difference mostly myth? #80  
I happened to find some torque curves for Ford gas and diesel truck engines. These fortunatly are for engines that are about the same size and running over the same RPM range.

Blue is <font color="blue">torque </font> and red is <font color="red"> HP.</font>

The blue line tells the story. Peak torques (388 vs 410) are about the same on these engines as well...

f68sm.gif

Ford 6.8L V-10 GAS

f73ism.gif

Ford 7.3L V-8 IDI Navistar Diesel

These images and more are located here...

THe key is the way the torque on the diesel rises as the engine RPM drops. Read: Give more effort when effort is needed. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

With the gas, torque drops off with engine RPM drops. Read: Fall over backwards...I can't pull any harder... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Which would you rather have pulling with you on your end of the rope during a tug of war?

I know my answer... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

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