Diesles for 2014

[kuboman]

yes the tier 4 interim engines run good but like i said have been around for a little bit and the bugs worked out. the tier 4 final engines will either have the particulate filters on them that collect the exhaust particles and dispose of them through high heat="regeneration" or using another fluid=urea, that mixes in the exhaust chamber and emits only water vapor out.

and yes this is only in the larger hp engines now and yes it has been it big rigs and trucks for a couple of years now, BUT

where i work, the state transportation dept., we have a lot of mack and international dump trucks. the new ones (since 2010) have had the new tier 4 final standards on them. in particular the regeneration/particulate filter type. and like i say, THE BUGS, now when plowing snow on state highways, when the truck needs to regenerate, the operator has to pull over and park for about 30-40 minutes, in a snow storm, for the truck to regenerate. if the operator does not do this, the engine system becomes clogged and the truck loses power and eventually will shut down.

now "technology" is so great that the older trucks (with OUT the new tier 4 final standards/systems) can just keep on trucking and plowing.:confused2: that is a bug. the trucks are supposed to regen while driving, BUT that is at highway speeds, for a certain amount of time. can't do that when using for utility/service work such as plowing snow. that is why you have to do "parked regeneration"

and what do you think the truck is running on when it is at high idle for 30-40 minutes "regenerating"? diesel fuel. yes, now we are tring to be fuel efficient, but have to pull off the road and do an EXTRA process that costs more fuel!:confused2: ANOTHER BUG that needs worked out. just ask ford power stroke owners how they tell when their pick up truck is done regenerating. most will say, "when i notice the miles per gallon go back up".

now, the newer trucks that have tier 4 final emmission standards are getting better at this. they regenerate more on their own while being operated. but the first models had that bug to work out. same will hold true for the tractors. in fact some engine companies stopped making engines, due to not being able to meet tier 4 final standards.(CAT) those companies have other engines in their equipment.

and another thing, all this extra stuff on the equipment will mean more to go wrong. when was the last time you had a manuel 4wd lever on a 4x4 break? probably not as often as an "electronic" push button type. so now we are adding more electronics on tractors, so now more to go wrong. all these reasons are why i will buy now, before tier 4 final hits the smaller hp engines. i am not against cleaner air, just against the goverment implementing their plan wasting more of my hard earned money on new technology that is not refined YET! yes i believe this new tier 4 final will get the bugs worked out, but it will be a bit. then i might look at a tier 4 final tractor then.

But, but government always knows what's best for you and me.:laughing::mur::cloud9:

 

[CHDinCT]

So another $3K in cost for a BX size tractor so we can get marginally cleaner emissions? Am I reading that right? Me thinks the cost vs benefit equation is about to go negative. Too bad our government can't figure that out. Insane. Glad I bought mine last year, and I hope I don't need to upgrade for a long while.

 

[charleyfarmall]

We all complain about a little added expense to keep the air clean. Jeez, imagine if you had one of those giant ocean going super tankers that spews more crud into the air than all the cars trucks and tractors combine and you had to upgrade your boat to make the air clean.... oh wait, sorry, they don't have to.

 

[kuboman]

We all complain about a little added expense to keep the air clean. Jeez, imagine if you had one of those giant ocean going super tankers that spews more crud into the air than all the cars trucks and tractors combine and you had to upgrade your boat to make the air clean.... oh wait, sorry, they don't have to.

Nor do the railways or the mining industry. I rest my case.

 

[PHILIP8N]

Nor do the railways or the mining industry. I rest my case.

I cannot speak about ocean frieght shipping or railways, but the company I work for makes equipment for the oil and gas industry, as well and the mining and drilling industry. We have been building T4i equiment since 2009, and now we are building larger T4i equipment with Cummins QSB4.5, Cat C7.1, C15, and C18, with horsepowers from 156 thru 755. Some of these compressors even go to the US Navy, so the government is abiding by the rules set in place as well. Philip.

 

[Baby Grand]

I was pleasantly surprised when I started using my t4i L tractor in 2007. It ran much cleaner than I remember diesels from the past and the fuel doesn't stink. New cars run really clean - when was the last time you had to suffer the fumes of the guy in front of you on the road? None of this would have happened without government mandates. That's what government is for - effecting change that private industry can't or won't enact. I'm getting tired of "the gumment is responsible for everything that is bad, so let's throw the government down a well" thinking.

What kind of government do you expect to get from people who think the government can't do anytthing right?

 

[CHDinCT]

What kind of government do you expect to get from people who think the government can't do anytthing right?

First off, not to make this political but my point is that there is a point of diminishing returns and I think when you add $3K to the price of a sub $20K piece of equipment to obtain modest air quality improvements, you've gone too far. Never said government doesn't have a role to play and that sensible regulation is needed.

If the typical SCUT costs $15K, and I think that's probably high, the added cost equates to a 20% increase! I don't see how that's not going to hurt the market for these machines which means lost jobs - another cost not factored in. And that leaves out any degradation in reliability, which I'd guess would drop at least initially.

 

[PHILIP8N]

How do we KNOW $3000 is being added to the price of a BX machine? Show me this. All we know is some mis-informed over talkative exaggerating Kubota dealer told a customer that the price was going to be $3000 higher in 2014. For all I know, he was just pushing and scaring the customer into making a sale now before it is too late and the world comes to an end. Philip.

 

[CHDinCT]

How do we KNOW $3000 is being added to the price of a BX machine? Show me this. All we know is some mis-informed over talkative exaggerating Kubota dealer told a customer that the price was going to be $3000 higher in 2014. For all I know, he was just pushing and scaring the customer into making a sale now before it is too late and the world comes to an end. Philip.

Show me it's not $3k. I really don't know but I have to assume a large Kubota dealer is more in the know than the average user on what the cost increase will be. All I'm saying is that if it is even close to $3K, even half that, I think it doesn't add up cost benefit wise.

 

[kuboman]

What kind of government do you expect to get from people who think the government can't do anytthing right?

What do you get when the people think the gumment can do nuttin wrong.

Oh wait I know... lemmings.

 

[rambler]

Taken out of text. The horserpower number is in reference to Kubota powered products, and the majority of their engines is below 75 horsepower. I am well aware of regulations up to and through 751 horserpower, which includes farmers and truckers and miners and drillers and construction wokers and etc... But, I felt it best to leave those comments out of this forum. Sorry it lost all its value for you. Philip.

Of the 6 or so Kubota's I know of in my neighborhood, 5 of them are the 100-135 hp machines. Perhaps not appropriate for this forum, but my majority is the big engines in my world. Actually Kubota has quite a stur in the ag community with their bigger tractors, they are a good value, with _simple_ controls which is appealing to a lot of farmers. Another thing is they worked to avoid these regulations as long as possible, sticking with 4 cyl engines and stuff. Us farmers know how these mandated regulations go - $3000 up front costs as mentioned, whaqt you don't hear is the very high sevice costs over the years. Def is a salt water, that ain't gonna be good for your shiny equipment over the long haul. And so on.

I see people who sell/work on this equipment happy to see the regulations, and I see state workers who son't have to use their own money to buy & maintain this equipment happy to see this equipment/ Hum. Regular folk are rightly skeptical - we've been down this path before.

While cleaner air is a good thing, and of course no one wants to go backwards - it's costing us more to transport anything, and to grow food. We do see inflation from this sort of govt regulations. Heck, I have to buy sulfur & apply it to my land now, don't get any free from acid rain any more. And now I need to compete fwith truckers for buying urea, fertilizer for my crops, or liquid to put in their trucks.

While I do not long for the days of acid rain, there are some hidden tradeoffs, how clean do we have to get? Pollution control equipment reduces efficiency, reduces mpg, increases costs, increases maintenence costs. Can sugar coat it, but over the vehicle lifetime, it costs more to run with all this stuff added.

Good for service folk, good for state workers, but the rest of us can have a few minutes to grumble I would suppose.

--->Paul

 

[kuboman]

Of the 6 or so Kubota's I know of in my neighborhood, 5 of them are the 100-135 hp machines. Perhaps not appropriate for this forum, but my majority is the big engines in my world. Actually Kubota has quite a stur in the ag community with their bigger tractors, they are a good value, with _simple_ controls which is appealing to a lot of farmers. Another thing is they worked to avoid these regulations as long as possible, sticking with 4 cyl engines and stuff. Us farmers know how these mandated regulations go - $3000 up front costs as mentioned, whaqt you don't hear is the very high sevice costs over the years. Def is a salt water, that ain't gonna be good for your shiny equipment over the long haul. And so on.

I see people who sell/work on this equipment happy to see the regulations, and I see state workers who son't have to use their own money to buy & maintain this equipment happy to see this equipment/ Hum. Regular folk are rightly skeptical - we've been down this path before.

While cleaner air is a good thing, and of course no one wants to go backwards - it's costing us more to transport anything, and to grow food. We do see inflation from this sort of govt regulations. Heck, I have to buy sulfur & apply it to my land now, don't get any free from acid rain any more. And now I need to compete fwith truckers for buying urea, fertilizer for my crops, or liquid to put in their trucks.

While I do not long for the days of acid rain, there are some hidden tradeoffs, how clean do we have to get? Pollution control equipment reduces efficiency, reduces mpg, increases costs, increases maintenence costs. Can sugar coat it, but over the vehicle lifetime, it costs more to run with all this stuff added.

Good for service folk, good for state workers, but the rest of us can have a few minutes to grumble I would suppose.

--->Paul

:thumbsup:Well said:thumbsup:

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't know what the source of this $3000 per tractor charge for Tier 4 engine compliance is but it is pretty clearly bullshot. Hysteria.

For starters, the equipment needed will vary by engine manufacturer's design so not all engines will have the same equipment. More importantly it is clearly stated in virtually all the information discussing this over the past few years that costs vary according to engine size which certainly makes sense. EPA estimated 1-2% of vehicle cost extra while other estimates go up to 7% or so. Most estimates seem to be in the 1-3% of vehicle cost range. $3000 on a $300,000 machine is bupkiss. And, 7% (unlikely but the highest figure I saw on a different website) on a $15,000 machine, is not $3000. 1% on a $15K tractor would be $150 and 3% only $450.

Check facts before repeating crap. Please.:thumbsup: Especially stuff that comes from dealers trying to sell you a tractor today. It really doesn't take that long if you have access to the internet. Maybe some of you don't have internet access.

By the way, here is a blurb from a Diesel.net news report on non road diesel equipment and tier 4. I don't know how reliable and independent diesel.net is but it isn't controlled by either the EPA or any single manufacturer and I believe it is simply a trade news journal. Here is the blurb:

""
1998 Regulation

At the time of signing the 1998 rule, the EPA estimated that by 2010 NOx emissions would be reduced by about a million tons per year, the equivalent of taking 35 million passenger cars off the road.
The costs of meeting the emission standards were expected to add under 1% to the purchase price of typical new nonroad diesel equipment, although for some equipment the standards may cause price increases on the order of 2-3%. The program was expected to cost about $600 per ton of NOx reduced.
Tier 4 Regulation

When the full inventory of older nonroad engines are replaced by Tier 4 engines, annual emission reductions are estimated at 738,000 tons of NOx and 129,000 tons of PM. By 2030, 12,000 premature deaths would be prevented annually due to the implementation of the proposed standards.
The estimated costs for added emission controls for the vast majority of equipment was estimated at 1-3% as a fraction of total equipment price. For example, for a 175 hp bulldozer that costs approximately $230,000 it would cost up to $6,900 to add the advanced emission controls and to design the bulldozer to accommodate the modified engine.

""

The whole article is here: Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I was joking when I threw out that 3k figure, however from what I've heard 2-3k is expected. Its going to cause a big shake up.

What I don't understand is why there are not places where there is a "good enough" threshold. If we got to Teir 4i with little cost increase, is it really nessesary to take this last step for things that are used 50-100 hours a year.

 

[IslandTractor]

I was joking when I threw out that 3k figure, however from what I've heard 2-3k is expected. Its going to cause a big shake up.

What I don't understand is why there are not places where there is a "good enough" threshold. If we got to Teir 4i with little cost increase, is it really nessesary to take this last step for things that are used 50-100 hours a year.

It is certainly not cost effective to put these controls on engines that will only be used 50-100 hours per year but unless someone can come up with a reasonable and enforceable strategy for preventing abuse of an exception to the rule, it would basically undercut the whole program and put others who are in compliance at a disadvantage.

From what I read I think your $2-3K estimate is way high. The controls necessary are not any worse than the ones used in the VW Golf TDI engine for example and that engine is sold for only a small premium over the gas engine. Clearly not thousands extra. No doubt the manufacturers will try to recoup development costs as quickly as possible and perhaps can raise prices while blaming it on the pollution control systems but I seriously question why it should cost any more than what it costs VW to keep their engines in compliance.

 

[Ductape]

If Volkswagen can sell emissions compliant diesels for a few hundred (???) more than gasoline engines...... then it means every engine manufacturer can accomplish the same for a few hundred per engine? I have some doubts. I'm just wondering at what point we are all regulated into living in grass huts, while the Chinese continue to spew filth into the air..... the same air we breathe. I suppose there are plenty of folks here on TBN that have so much money it wouldn't matter what the government required. :confused2:

 

[PHILIP8N]

I'm just wondering at what point we are all regulated into living in grass huts, while the Chinese continue to spew filth into the air..... the same air we breathe.

I don't think we will ever be regulated to live in grass huts, come on now, be realistic.

Good question and tough point. China is currently following T2 emission regulations, and they have committed to following T3 emission regulations in 2015. As can be expeceted, the lesser countries need more time to develop a plan, get the proper lubricating oils, and most important, get the proper ULSD fuel in place. It is tough for us as a US oem manufactuer as well. For one product, we sell it with an export engine for Ghana (Africa), one with a T3 engine for Alberta (Canada), and one with a T4i engine for US, Europe, and Japan. That is allot bill of material of maintenance. Philip.

 

[bhaskarji]

According to you what will be basic spec/genset /marine fications & requirements for a off road3/4 cylinder diesel engine usable on agricultural tractor/construction machines/BHL in developing markets such as India say 2014

 

[wildcatblue]

Great, for this 3000 added bucks to a new tractor, all of us that were complaining of black sut all over your loader arms now can put that behind us in the future. what a deal!!..
I forsee just DPF filters will prevail on the smaller HP tractors with EGR, anything more will have to be ECM controlled, which adds more cost but time will tell on this . I do like the clean air to breathe though, those days of following an old Mack dump truck billowing out black clouds of sut is over thank goodness..

 

[IslandTractor]

Great, for this 3000 added bucks to a new tractor, all of us that were complaining of black sut all over your loader arms now can put that behind us in the future. what a deal!!..
I forsee just DPF filters will prevail on the smaller HP tractors with EGR, anything more will have to be ECM controlled, which adds more cost but time will tell on this . I do like the clean air to breathe though, those days of following an old Mack dump truck billowing out black clouds of sut is over thank goodness..

It will not cost $3000 extra. Those figures are thrown around by 1) dealers trying to sell you a tractor today and 2) people who have an anti regulatory agenda. You know, the same folks who told you cars with airbags would be unaffordable.