Diesles for 2014

[Gator6x4]

I don't know what the source of this $3000 per tractor charge for Tier 4 engine compliance is but it is pretty clearly bullshot. Hysteria.

For starters, the equipment needed will vary by engine manufacturer's design so not all engines will have the same equipment. More importantly it is clearly stated in virtually all the information discussing this over the past few years that costs vary according to engine size which certainly makes sense. EPA estimated 1-2% of vehicle cost extra while other estimates go up to 7% or so. Most estimates seem to be in the 1-3% of vehicle cost range. $3000 on a $300,000 machine is bupkiss. And, 7% (unlikely but the highest figure I saw on a different website) on a $15,000 machine, is not $3000. 1% on a $15K tractor would be $150 and 3% only $450.

Check facts before repeating crap. Please.:thumbsup: Especially stuff that comes from dealers trying to sell you a tractor today. It really doesn't take that long if you have access to the internet. Maybe some of you don't have internet access.

By the way, here is a blurb from a Diesel.net news report on non road diesel equipment and tier 4. I don't know how reliable and independent diesel.net is but it isn't controlled by either the EPA or any single manufacturer and I believe it is simply a trade news journal. Here is the blurb:

""
1998 Regulation

At the time of signing the 1998 rule, the EPA estimated that by 2010 NOx emissions would be reduced by about a million tons per year, the equivalent of taking 35 million passenger cars off the road.
The costs of meeting the emission standards were expected to add under 1% to the purchase price of typical new nonroad diesel equipment, although for some equipment the standards may cause price increases on the order of 2-3%. The program was expected to cost about $600 per ton of NOx reduced.
Tier 4 Regulation

When the full inventory of older nonroad engines are replaced by Tier 4 engines, annual emission reductions are estimated at 738,000 tons of NOx and 129,000 tons of PM. By 2030, 12,000 premature deaths would be prevented annually due to the implementation of the proposed standards.
The estimated costs for added emission controls for the vast majority of equipment was estimated at 1-3% as a fraction of total equipment price. For example, for a 175 hp bulldozer that costs approximately $230,000 it would cost up to $6,900 to add the advanced emission controls and to design the bulldozer to accommodate the modified engine.

""

The whole article is here: Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

Aw come on now.....are you saying the tractor people cannot use the same sales scare tactics as the firearms and ammunition people used to generate and greatly increase sales. Why that would violate the first principle of American sales.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

It will not cost $3000 extra. Those figures are thrown around by 1) dealers trying to sell you a tractor today and 2) people who have an anti regulatory agenda. You know, the same folks who told you cars with airbags would be unaffordable.

...no, its really $3000 more expensive. We had a prototype through a few weeks ago and they where looking at around a $3500 increase over the prior model (mid 30's HP). The 80-135 Hp stuff which is hitting the ground here shortly goes up about $4500. You'll see those models and prices in a few weeks time. on the 200+ HP stuff that we're already at Tier 4, it was about an 8% increase.. or 15k more or less. Anyone price a Truck with DEF...? This stuff is not cheap!

On the big stuff, there is a fuel economney savings that is paying for the emmissions hardware. The problem comes in compact and utility machines that don't see the hours use to generate the fuel savings. I would guess thats a factor in the figures cited above.

 

[IslandTractor]

...no, its really $3000 more expensive. We had a prototype through a few weeks ago and they where looking at around a $3500 increase over the prior model (mid 30's HP). The 80-135 Hp stuff which is hitting the ground here shortly goes up about $4500. You'll see those models and prices in a few weeks time. on the 200+ HP stuff that we're already at Tier 4, it was about an 8% increase.. or 15k more or less. Anyone price a Truck with DEF...? This stuff is not cheap!

On the big stuff, there is a fuel economney savings that is paying for the emmissions hardware. The problem comes in compact and utility machines that don't see the hours use to generate the fuel savings. I would guess thats a factor in the figures cited above.

If that is true then you better stock up on BX1860, BX2360 and B2320 tractors as those will be the only ones you have costing less than $20,000 or so.

How is it that Volkswagen and Mercedes can produce diesel cars with 140-210hp that cost only about $1500 more than gas equivalents if on road diesels are already tier 4 equivalent?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

If that is true then you better stock up on BX1860, BX2360 and B2320 tractors as those will be the only ones you have costing less than $20,000 or so.

How is it that Volkswagen and Mercedes can produce diesel cars with 140-210hp that cost only about $1500 more than gas equivalents if on road diesels are already tier 4 equivalent?

government rebates? sales volume? don't know....?

yea, we are planning on filling our warehouse with Tier3 models. Problem is that people know this is comming and my attempt to do that in 75-130 HP was gobbled up by customers who know this is comming.

 

[IslandTractor]

government rebates? sales volume? don't know....?
.

No rebates from govt on VW or Mercedes road diesels. Sales volume would certainly be a possible explanation but more likely the off road diesel manufacturers are trying to recoup development costs in a very short time period. It certainly seems that it is not that large quantities of unobtainium or costly machining is involved. I still think the EPA estimates of a few percent added cost seems realistic and the rest of this 15-20% price hike is either marketing hype or excess profits once the development costs are paid.

 

[1savoy]

If that is true then you better stock up on BX1860, BX2360 and B2320 tractors as those will be the only ones you have costing less than $20,000 or so.

How is it that Volkswagen and Mercedes can produce diesel cars with 140-210hp that cost only about $1500 more than gas equivalents if on road diesels are already tier 4 equivalent?

Hi IslandTractor,

I do not think you can get the VW diesel cars for $1,500 more than the gas equivalent. I have been looking at them for last couple years and will probably get one for my wife in the near future. Base gas "S" Jetta SportWagen starts at $20,195. Can not get a TDI in this level trim. Gas "SE" starts at $24,210 (only offered with auto tranny) and the TDI (same features as SE) with automatic starts at $26,640. I really only want the "S", so the diesel is costing me $6,445, but not apples to apples. But even between "SE" models it still costs $2,430 more for the diesel and VW has been doing these little diesel cars for a long time. Also, the dealers do not discount the price nearly as much on the TDI's as they do the gas models. My neighbor just bought the Passat diesel and dealers would not budge off sticker. Just my 0.02.

 

[IslandTractor]

Hi IslandTractor,

I do not think you can get the VW diesel cars for $1,500 more than the gas equivalent. I have been looking at them for last couple years and will probably get one for my wife in the near future. Base gas "S" Jetta SportWagen starts at $20,195. Can not get a TDI in this level trim. Gas "SE" starts at $24,210 (only offered with auto tranny) and the TDI (same features as SE) with automatic starts at $26,640. I really only want the "S", so the diesel is costing me $6,445, but not apples to apples. But even between "SE" models it still costs $2,430 more for the diesel and VW has been doing these little diesel cars for a long time. Also, the dealers do not discount the price nearly as much on the TDI's as they do the gas models. My neighbor just bought the Passat diesel and dealers would not budge off sticker. Just my 0.02.

I looked up the Mercedes E class diesel vs gas and it is exactly $1500 different at list price with identical trim. You are right about the Jetta but the problem in comparing Jetta gas v diesel is that the trim levels are not identical whereas for the MB they are. The Passat diesel is similar and additionally dealers won't discount due to limited availability so I only looked at list price

Another way to look at this is historically. Diesels have always cost a bit more than gas cars and since the clean emission requirement for on road vehicles went into effect a few years ago there has not been any major jump in the relative cost for the diesel upgrade.

 

[Spencer C]

The auto industry conversation is a bit of a red herring, but to further it a bit...

A significant portion of the price discrepancy between the on-road and off-road diesel price increases may be due to the current level of refinement already in production. For example, going from a very low emission diesel to an extremely low emission diesel is not very cost intensive. It's a marginal price increase. However, making the larger jump from a high emission engine to a low emission engine has to cover a larger spread. With tractors, engines that had mechanical injection last year must now have common rail injection. That's a significant cost increase. In the auto world, the engines didn't have to make such a large "technology jump," since they already had common rail engines. Just a thought.

 

[IslandTractor]

The auto industry conversation is a bit of a red herring, but to further it a bit...

A significant portion of the price discrepancy between the on-road and off-road diesel price increases may be due to the current level of refinement already in production. For example, going from a very low emission diesel to an extremely low emission diesel is not very cost intensive. It's a marginal price increase. However, making the larger jump from a high emission engine to a low emission engine has to cover a larger spread. With tractors, engines that had mechanical injection last year must now have common rail injection. That's a significant cost increase. In the auto world, the engines didn't have to make such a large "technology jump," since they already had common rail engines. Just a thought.

Good point. I hadn't thought that car/truck engines were more than 4-5 years ahead of off road but maybe they are. I know the less than 25hp legacy diesels are very old technology but those are not covered by the Tier 4 regulations anyways.

 

[Case224]

I don't know what the source of this $3000 per tractor charge for Tier 4 engine compliance is but it is pretty clearly bullshot. Hysteria.

For starters, the equipment needed will vary by engine manufacturer's design so not all engines will have the same equipment. More importantly it is clearly stated in virtually all the information discussing this over the past few years that costs vary according to engine size which certainly makes sense. EPA estimated 1-2% of vehicle cost extra while other estimates go up to 7% or so. Most estimates seem to be in the 1-3% of vehicle cost range. $3000 on a $300,000 machine is bupkiss. And, 7% (unlikely but the highest figure I saw on a different website) on a $15,000 machine, is not $3000. 1% on a $15K tractor would be $150 and 3% only $450.

Check facts before repeating crap. Please.:thumbsup: Especially stuff that comes from dealers trying to sell you a tractor today. It really doesn't take that long if you have access to the internet. Maybe some of you don't have internet access.

By the way, here is a blurb from a Diesel.net news report on non road diesel equipment and tier 4. I don't know how reliable and independent diesel.net is but it isn't controlled by either the EPA or any single manufacturer and I believe it is simply a trade news journal. Here is the blurb:

""
1998 Regulation

At the time of signing the 1998 rule, the EPA estimated that by 2010 NOx emissions would be reduced by about a million tons per year, the equivalent of taking 35 million passenger cars off the road.
The costs of meeting the emission standards were expected to add under 1% to the purchase price of typical new nonroad diesel equipment, although for some equipment the standards may cause price increases on the order of 2-3%. The program was expected to cost about $600 per ton of NOx reduced.
Tier 4 Regulation

When the full inventory of older nonroad engines are replaced by Tier 4 engines, annual emission reductions are estimated at 738,000 tons of NOx and 129,000 tons of PM. By 2030, 12,000 premature deaths would be prevented annually due to the implementation of the proposed standards.
The estimated costs for added emission controls for the vast majority of equipment was estimated at 1-3% as a fraction of total equipment price. For example, for a 175 hp bulldozer that costs approximately $230,000 it would cost up to $6,900 to add the advanced emission controls and to design the bulldozer to accommodate the modified engine.

""

The whole article is here: Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

I own a 2010 International semi with 08 emissions, all I have is the diesel particular filter the cost added to my purchase was $9,000.00.
My truck has 300,000 miles on it now and I have already spent 2700.00 on emissions related repairs(not covered under warranty) as far as the cleanliness of the air I would rather start an old "stinky" diesel in my living room and smell it for hours than smell these modern diesels regen for a minute, it truly does give off a foul odor

 

[Bigfoot62]

My 2009 Kubota L3940 has a Tier 4 interim engine in it. It is already here, and there are no problems. The Tier 4 final engines over 175hp are in new off road equipment now. Tier 4 final engines have been in over the road trucks (pick-up and big-rigs) since 2010. Fear not change, accept it. Philip.

Yep, and that's why I'm driving a '95 Kenworth, and '97 & '03 Ford SuperDuty trucks. I WON'T buy the new junk!!! YOU can ACCEPT it if you want, not me. (sorry for the rant, nothing personal, just one of my pet peeves)
A good friend is the maintenance supervisor for a construction operation. They have three new Class 8 service trucks for their equipment. He tells me that he's lucky if he can keep ONE of them on the job. The other two will be in the shop, all for emissions problems. These are still under warranty, but what good is warranty if you can use the truck?
Another buddy of mine, that's also in the trucking business like me, has three new KW W900's. (2011 & 2012 year models) While he hasn't yet had any breakdowns, he says that his average fuel mileage is 4.5 mpg. My old truck averages 7 mpg or more.

Tier 4F is NOT an improvement. It's a nightmare. IMHO, the EPA is probably the worst example of Big Brother gone bad.

 

[Bigfoot62]

How do we KNOW $3000 is being added to the price of a BX machine? Show me this. All we know is some mis-informed over talkative exaggerating Kubota dealer told a customer that the price was going to be $3000 higher in 2014. For all I know, he was just pushing and scaring the customer into making a sale now before it is too late and the world comes to an end. Philip.

Don't know about a BX. They don't have a catalytic converter - - yet.
The replacement cat for a big truck (18 wheeler) is over $6000. I would imagine that $3000 for a small tractor might be pretty close.

 

[pclausen]

I recently purchased a 2012 JD 5085M with has the new tier4 engine. Here you can see the particulate burn indicators on the dash that will come on at some point during operation to burn those off. Got about 80 hours on the tractor so far and have not seen it come on yet. I hear it will only operate every 500 hours or so.

And here's a shot of the monster muffler where you can see the fuel line where diesel gets injected during the burn cycle.

I have not experienced any negatives yet. In fact, I have observed the following positives:

No exhaust smell ever
No smoke of any kind is emitted from the exhaust, black, grey or otherwise, even under full load
Very quiet exhaust, almost non existent
Very fuel efficient

As for price, the base model went from $45,510 to $47,986, so an increase of $2,476. But there were several other enhancements introduced for MY2012, such as sync range shift from B to C to D range, higher fuel capacity, higher hitch capacity and longer wheel base.

 

[kuboman]

I recently purchased a 2012 JD 5085M with has the new tier4 engine. Here you can see the particulate burn indicators on the dash that will come on at some point during operation to burn those off. Got about 80 hours on the tractor so far and have not seen it come on yet. I hear it will only operate every 500 hours or so.

And here's a shot of the monster muffler where you can see the fuel line where diesel gets injected during the burn cycle.

I have not experienced any negatives yet. In fact, I have observed the following positives:

No exhaust smell ever
No smoke of any kind is emitted from the exhaust, black, grey or otherwise, even under full load
Very quiet exhaust, almost non existent
Very fuel efficient

As for price, the base model went from $45,510 to $47,986, so an increase of $2,476. But there were several other enhancements introduced for MY2012, such as sync range shift from B to C to D range, higher fuel capacity, higher hitch capacity and longer wheel base.

Wait till you start repairing all that junk.:thumbdown:

 

[IslandTractor]

Wait till you start repairing all that junk.:thumbdown:

That is exactly what all the naysayers thought about adding turbos to diesels.. And, septIc systems too. Just put your waste out there for all to enjoy instead of using fancy new technology.

 

[pclausen]

I realize that the more complicated things get, the more things can break. But that's the chance you take to have the latest technology. I for one appreciate the benefits that I have seen so far and will deal with any issues I run into appropriately. My old Ford 1910 was a pain to get started and smoked like a diesel freight train going up a steep hill, and this was like a 32hp tractor albeit with an Yanmar engine in it. I love the simplicity of the 70s era cars I have worked on, but they were a pain to keep in peak tune. New cars are so much easier in that regard, but yes, when something breaks, it can be a pain to fix although the diagnostic tool scanners can sometimes quickly narrow down the issue. Tier4 tractor engines have a port to hook up a scanner to as well.

 

[1savoy]

"No exhaust smell ever
No smoke of any kind is emitted from the exhaust, black, grey or otherwise, even under full load
Very quiet exhaust, almost non existent
Very fuel efficient"

Well, without the smoke, smell, and noise there will just not be any fun owning a tractor anymore Those are just a few of my top priorities in purchasing a tractor. It is like someone wanting to put Swamper Boggers on their 4x4 and worrying about road nosie. I figured road noise was extra credit, just like the smell, sound, and smoke of diesels. All kidding aside, I know technology keeps moving forward, but I am sure going to miss the old technology. Love the old junk and will probably have to keep some around forever. Just my $.02.

 

[kuboman]

That is exactly what all the naysayers thought about adding turbos to diesels.. And, septIc systems too. Just put your waste out there for all to enjoy instead of using fancy new technology.

Geewiz all I remember about adding a turbo was "what took so long to figure this out". Things with emissions has gone out of control and it is being carried to the extreme. That being said there are better ways to carry this out but Deere and some others have gone the most costly troublesome, expensive route. It will cause significant trouble sooner than later, and as it turns out Deere is in the process of going the DEF route in a few years so all the emission junk they put on will become obsolete and expensive to keep for all those that own the present system.
Oh by the way I do have septic system.:laughing:

 

[IslandTractor]

Geewiz all I remember about adding a turbo was "what took so long to figure this out". Things with emissions has gone out of control and it is being carried to the extreme. That being said there are better ways to carry this out but Deere and some others have gone the most costly troublesome, expensive route. It will cause significant trouble sooner than later, and as it turns out Deere is in the process of going the DEF route in a few years so all the emission junk they put on will become obsolete and expensive to keep for all those that own the present system.
Oh by the way I do have septic system.:laughing:

The bleeding edge of technology is always a bit painful but the long term benefits are generally worth it. There are dead ends with some well intended "advances" but it is not really possible to predict those with any accuracy. The Tier 4 technology was not dreamed up by a handful of bureaucrats and there has been plenty of testing. Time will tell but I'd put my money on Tier 4 being recognized as a positive step once the dust settles.

 

[Ductape]

The bleeding edge of technology is always a bit painful but the long term benefits are generally worth it. There are dead ends with some well intended "advances" but it is not really possible to predict those with any accuracy.

Next thing you know, my Sony Beta will be considered obsolete ! Oh the humanity !!