Different types of Oil???

[songhunter]

Yes, the good old oil debate /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The only ones I'd rather read about are the Husky-Stihl and the HST-gear debates. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The study conducted by Consumer Reports a few years back was referenced in a previous thread a few days ago. That is probably the most definitive study on motor oils I have read in a while, but I'm just a consumer. The conclusion was that synthetics are not a great advantage to the average vehicle operator. In fact, the study showed very little difference in engine wear between premium grade motor oils.

The fact is that premium grade motor oils these days are better than they have to be. It may make some people feel warm and fuzzy to put synthetic in their equipment, but that's about the extent of it's usefulness for most folks.

Consider a fleet of police vehicles (around 250), periodically maintained with premium grade motor oil (usually Kendall or Castrol, but basically low-bid). The cars are turned off when they're maintained or filled with fuel. One shift drives for eight hours, fills the tank, then the next shift drives, and... you get the idea. Most will go well over 200,000 miles (and that's in stop and go traffic, long idling while at the doughnut shop /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif , er, investigating accidents, etc) with very few motor oil related failures. Most everything else breaks before engines when the correct service interval is maintained.

Some might say this fleet would use synthetic oils, but run the numbers. Are synthetics a good investment? I don't see how they could be.

Anyhow, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[RalphVa]

gscr1000 summarized it pretty good with his brief listing: There are many groups of oils group 1, (Solvent refined), 2 (Hydro processed), 3 (Hydrocracked (VHVI)), 4 (PAO) & 5 (jet engine oil). I worked for 31 years on processes to make oil and have seen the research tests (on engines in use) done on the various oils. They generally get better the higher the number in the above sequence.

All the above oils are "dino" oils. Some are processed out of crude oil out of the ground. Others take chemicals from that crude oil processing, process them further and make oils.

A good oil is basically an isoparaffinic molecule. This is sorta like taking a straight chain of C-H molecules, connected by their C molecules but with side chains of C-H molecules. The normal engine oil will have about 20 to 40 of these C molecules chained together. If you happen to put too many side chains onto the "oil", you'll end up with a "wax" which is a GREAT lube oil except that it can solidify at room temperature in the summer time.

Most of the "synthethic" oils are PolyAlphaOlefins (those PAOs) manufactured from the feedstock that so many plastics are made from. THIS is what makes it so expensive. It's more valuable made into plastic.

Those jet engine oils are another kind of chemical. I've forgotten which one, but they'll take even higher temps than the PAOs will and not break down or ignite. These are generally produced by chemical companies rather than petroleum refiners. However, their feedstock still starts from a dino source somewhere.

The large majority of oils are solvent refined, with various amounts of hydroprocessing included. The solvent refining includes removal of non-paraffinic molecules by nasty chemicals like phenol or NMP or furfural followed by wax removal via propane, MEK/Toluene or MEK/MIBK or propylene with hydroprocessing to take out mainly sulfur and some leftover non-paraffinics. Hydroprocessing can substitute or just augment the solvent processes. Confused?

By the way, Castrol doesn't make a drop of dino oil that it sells.

Ralph

 

[slowrev]

I think that some of the engine manufacturers are designing their engines around synthetic oil. In other words they will not last if you run reguolar premium oil in them. To me this is a weaker engine.

Just run regular premium oil of the proper viscosity and a good filter and change your oil frequently. It has always worked for me, I have put around 1 milloin miles total on my vehicles over the years and have yet to have internal engine problems on any of them. Well I do have a Subaru with about 200k on it that has one lifter that will bleed down if not started for several days /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[gsxr1100]

wow--MEK I have not heard that in sometime since the company I work for, UTC, stopped using it. Bad stuff.

 

[gsxr1100]

slowrev--It is not weaker engine but a better refined one. Certain applications call for differant fludis etc.

It is like my salt water fish tank can only have reef salt, not table salt. Not all salt are equal.

If you were right, then I could run normal ATF/hyd fluid in my BX22 hyd system. Kubota reccomands there Super UD fluids since they flow better etc. Do I use Kubota fluid no, but I understand why they have them.

As I stated before you get what you pay for. If you drain your oil at small intervals (waster of time, money resouces) then why use synthetic but again, my time is worth the $$$ for synthetic.

 

[alpha]

well I do believe that synthetics are better protection. Why else would the top end car makers ask you to use them. Sure you can get 200,000 out of a car on dino but how good is the power compared to when it was new. Proof for me who USED to believe synthetic was a rip off was watching drag racing;John Force came out of his funny car laughing his *-# off. the camera guy asked why John replied he made his burnout and full run with zero oil presure the engine was fine. I was sold, if a 1000 hp. + engine could live like that there was something good in synthetics. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[slowrev]

If it is because of better engines, why do brand new GM engines come from the factory with 3 or 4 stop leak tablets and instructions that you must use them ?

 

[gsxr1100]

Maybe a design flaw. It could be a quick fix until they design something better. Plus I never said GM was any good! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I know some Ford cars need diesel SCA added to the rad for something.

Not knocking domestic cars, but again you get what you pay for.

 

[hillslider]

Back when I was running a NAPA store I had a company rep from Bars Leak tell me the same thing. It was not to stop leaks it was to lubricate the water pump. Still kind of weird though.

 

[JeffRey30747]

Do I need synthetic oil? I would say no because the manufacturers of the engines that I use do not specify it in their recommendations. Do I use synthetic oil? Yes, I use it in every engine that I own except for the 2 strokes and my worn out old '85 Toyota pickup with 250K miles. Personally, I think it is worth the difference. Is a PAO based oil any better for my usage than a hydrocracked oil? I don't know but general consensus is that PAO oils are better and I kind of just go with the flow on that one (especially since their seems to be virtually no difference in the price).

Jeff