Disc Mower
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HayDR
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Fred,
They all use the same principle to cut the hay. The main difference is drability, ease of repair, & your dealer. There are two main types of cutter bars: Shaft drive & Gear drive. Do realize the main line people JD, NH, & others do not build their own 3 point mowers. These MFG's sometimes build the frame but all of them purchase the componants from Europe. A used New Idea mower was either made buy Lely or Comer
They all use the same principle to cut the hay. The main difference is drability, ease of repair, & your dealer. There are two main types of cutter bars: Shaft drive & Gear drive. Do realize the main line people JD, NH, & others do not build their own 3 point mowers. These MFG's sometimes build the frame but all of them purchase the componants from Europe. A used New Idea mower was either made buy Lely or Comer
RickB
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New Holland manufactures nearly all the components required to build its disc mowers. They used to buy disc cutterbars from Kuhn, but that ended about 8 years ago.
cowboydoc
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I've got a JD 14' disc mower. It's great. I'm not so sure about it's components being imported. I've toured the plant where they make the hay equipment and I was under the impression it was one of the few things left that was 100% made in the USA.
HayDR
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Cowboydoc,
Your MOCO has major parts from Italy, Spain, & Germany. I doubt Fred is looking for a $20,000 pull type machine that needs 90 HP to pull that machine if he was looking at a used 3 point 7' machine. The MOCO is assembled here but but far for 100% USA made machine. Look at the JD twin hydraulic rake, its 100% American made by Vermeer. In fact Vermeer makes the 850 NO-Till drill. JD doesn't make many of its machines but just relables them. Hesston holds the patent on their round balers. Tonutti MFG's their wheel rakes. Traditionally for the last 50 years Deere has not had advanced technology in their hay equipment. Most all of the MFG's in the USA were years ahead of Deere. Deere ended buying and stealing from other companies to get where they are now. CAT, Vermeer, Hesston have won big patent defence court cases against Deere.
Your MOCO has major parts from Italy, Spain, & Germany. I doubt Fred is looking for a $20,000 pull type machine that needs 90 HP to pull that machine if he was looking at a used 3 point 7' machine. The MOCO is assembled here but but far for 100% USA made machine. Look at the JD twin hydraulic rake, its 100% American made by Vermeer. In fact Vermeer makes the 850 NO-Till drill. JD doesn't make many of its machines but just relables them. Hesston holds the patent on their round balers. Tonutti MFG's their wheel rakes. Traditionally for the last 50 years Deere has not had advanced technology in their hay equipment. Most all of the MFG's in the USA were years ahead of Deere. Deere ended buying and stealing from other companies to get where they are now. CAT, Vermeer, Hesston have won big patent defence court cases against Deere.
cowboydoc
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Phred,
I run it with the 4020 or the 4430.
CCI,
I know for a fact that JD has many patents on their hay equipment. I'm not saying they don't buy parts from other places but I do know they have many original designs as other companies do as well. The recent edge wrap technology for the round balers was a JD idea to name one. Heck I think Hesston has great equipment as well. Could you post all those patents and cases that deere has supposedly lost in court?
I run it with the 4020 or the 4430.
CCI,
I know for a fact that JD has many patents on their hay equipment. I'm not saying they don't buy parts from other places but I do know they have many original designs as other companies do as well. The recent edge wrap technology for the round balers was a JD idea to name one. Heck I think Hesston has great equipment as well. Could you post all those patents and cases that deere has supposedly lost in court?
HayDR
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Net Wrap balers are less than 5% of the USA round baler market sales. JD needs the net wrap because their diamond traction belts strip most of the leaves off legume crops.
JD settles out of court against Hesston on the balers and had to pay a royality to Hesston, Same with Cat on the design of the Rubber Track tractor, and Vermeer on their bale monitoring system. Deere has also lost cases to Lely, Kuhn, PZ, Kverneland & NH. Have you ever wondered why Deere stuff is the most expensive.
We have a JD4055 & a 2940 that pulls a 10' discbine.
JD settles out of court against Hesston on the balers and had to pay a royality to Hesston, Same with Cat on the design of the Rubber Track tractor, and Vermeer on their bale monitoring system. Deere has also lost cases to Lely, Kuhn, PZ, Kverneland & NH. Have you ever wondered why Deere stuff is the most expensive.
We have a JD4055 & a 2940 that pulls a 10' discbine.
cowboydoc
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Can you give some direction on where this information is at? I've been in the business a long time and looked at it all over and over and I've seen alot of things come along that nobody else had before JD and vice versa with the other companies. The idea stealing goes on all the time from every angle. Also where does 5% of the round baler sales come from? You can't even hardly give away a round baler around here that doesn't do net wrap. I know of the balers being sold in my area net wrap is very big. If you drive out in the fields you also see almost everything being net wrapped. I'm not saying it isn't different in another part of the country but I sure would like to see the places you get your #'s from.
Bird
Rest in Peace
Yep, Richard, it's different in different parts of the country. 5 years ago, I didn't know of but one guy in my part of the country using net wrap; everyone else was using twine, but in the last couple of years, I've noticed the net wrap gaining in popularity simply from seeing some net wrapped bales here and there that I know don't belong to the one guy I knew using it. But as far as numbers and percentages, I haven't the foggiest notion.
cowboydoc
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I totally agree with you 5 years ago Bird. It was that way here too. Now though it really is about all you see.
Bird
Rest in Peace
It hasn't changed that fast down here, but I suspect it will continue changing. I think as the farmers upgrade their equipment more and more of them are going to the wrap. I know the guy I worked with for two summers has mentioned wishing he'd gone with the net wrap instead of the twine.
HayDR
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Cowboydoc,
You have one baler for every 1.8 sections in Idaho and here in the East we have 12 per section, 640 acres. My family dealership sold more balers than all the round balers reported to EMI as sold in all of Idaho last season. Marketing is what I do Doc. You might be surprised to find out that 60% of all the cattle is owned by farmers that own less than 100 acres. The whole world is not Idaho.
You have one baler for every 1.8 sections in Idaho and here in the East we have 12 per section, 640 acres. My family dealership sold more balers than all the round balers reported to EMI as sold in all of Idaho last season. Marketing is what I do Doc. You might be surprised to find out that 60% of all the cattle is owned by farmers that own less than 100 acres. The whole world is not Idaho.
cowboydoc
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Why do you have to get nasty? I just asked where the #'s were so I could read them myself. I am in Iowa right now and I know the difference in land between the two places. I run one unit per acre here and at my ranch back home I run one unit per 15 acres on the range ground. Here I farm almost all of my ground. Back home I've got 5000 acres and only farm a little over 800 of that. The rest is rangeland. I know the difference in land. All I asked was for some #'s and some place that I could go and read about all of this.
Actually if you want to talk about hay equipment you don't see hardly any John Deere stuff in Idaho. Almost everything is Hesston or New Holland. I think they both make a great product as well. I have no doubt that JD pays some royalty to them for some of their equipment. In the midwest though you don't see hardly anything but John Deere.
If marketing and selling is what you do why can't you provide us with some real data? I'm not saying anything about anybody I'm just asking for some data is all. If you can't provide data then it's just your opinion over mine. I'm more than willing to say I may be wrong.
I've also been in this business all of my life and I've seen alot and read alot as well. I also travel all over with the horses and cattle showing, selling and talk to guys from all over the country and visit their places. Alot of us here know what it's like for someone to tell us how things are when we live it everyday and know that in real life it's something else.
I'm not saying you aren't right I'm just asking to read some of the literature that you're getting all of these figures from.
Actually if you want to talk about hay equipment you don't see hardly any John Deere stuff in Idaho. Almost everything is Hesston or New Holland. I think they both make a great product as well. I have no doubt that JD pays some royalty to them for some of their equipment. In the midwest though you don't see hardly anything but John Deere.
If marketing and selling is what you do why can't you provide us with some real data? I'm not saying anything about anybody I'm just asking for some data is all. If you can't provide data then it's just your opinion over mine. I'm more than willing to say I may be wrong.
I've also been in this business all of my life and I've seen alot and read alot as well. I also travel all over with the horses and cattle showing, selling and talk to guys from all over the country and visit their places. Alot of us here know what it's like for someone to tell us how things are when we live it everyday and know that in real life it's something else.
I'm not saying you aren't right I'm just asking to read some of the literature that you're getting all of these figures from.
cowboydoc
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Belts are staggered to reduce the loss of fine material and are closely spaced to contain the hay for fast, easy starts.
Belts enclose 91 percent of the bale width to reduce loss of fine material and retain hay quality.
The staggered belt roll design enables any loose hay under or behind the belts to be returned to the pickup and into the baler.
This patented design helps prevent buildup at the front of the baler, which could cause hay loss and belt or splice damage.
The above statement is from JD and also was reported in Country Farming.
You state:
JD needs the net wrap because their diamond traction belts strip most of the leaves off legume crops.
Ok now who is right? If you are where did it state that?
I have a 547 baler and I know mine doesn't strip the leaves off of it. I can take some pics when I get home to show you the quality of a bale that I get. I have both net wrapped bales and twine wrapped bales.
Belts enclose 91 percent of the bale width to reduce loss of fine material and retain hay quality.
The staggered belt roll design enables any loose hay under or behind the belts to be returned to the pickup and into the baler.
This patented design helps prevent buildup at the front of the baler, which could cause hay loss and belt or splice damage.
The above statement is from JD and also was reported in Country Farming.
You state:
JD needs the net wrap because their diamond traction belts strip most of the leaves off legume crops.
Ok now who is right? If you are where did it state that?
I have a 547 baler and I know mine doesn't strip the leaves off of it. I can take some pics when I get home to show you the quality of a bale that I get. I have both net wrapped bales and twine wrapped bales.
HayDR
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Cowboydoc,
I apologize if I was argumentative and aggressive. My sources are EMI, FEMA, private marketing research, & the USDA. The USDA date is public domain but the other data is confidential to the industry. I can not post or publish this date in part or as a whole because of copyrights. The same way that trade publications like Farm Equipment can not publish the data. Doc I've seen the JD bales many times. Most all the balers today make good bales with a good operator but I was at the Sunbelt AG SHow in Ga, it rained all day but they still were baling hay and the NH baler could not start a bale. The engineers were cusing each other but the problem was the baler has to be adjusted to bale wet crops. It was fun to watch. Any good operator could have made it bale hay but they had too much education to trust their baler.
I apologize if I was argumentative and aggressive. My sources are EMI, FEMA, private marketing research, & the USDA. The USDA date is public domain but the other data is confidential to the industry. I can not post or publish this date in part or as a whole because of copyrights. The same way that trade publications like Farm Equipment can not publish the data. Doc I've seen the JD bales many times. Most all the balers today make good bales with a good operator but I was at the Sunbelt AG SHow in Ga, it rained all day but they still were baling hay and the NH baler could not start a bale. The engineers were cusing each other but the problem was the baler has to be adjusted to bale wet crops. It was fun to watch. Any good operator could have made it bale hay but they had too much education to trust their baler.
cowboydoc
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they had too much education to trust their baler.
Boy isn't that the truth. What is EMI and FEMA? Also Deere states that they have are #1 in round baler salers in all of North America. According to your stats is this true?
Boy isn't that the truth. What is EMI and FEMA? Also Deere states that they have are #1 in round baler salers in all of North America. According to your stats is this true?
HayDR
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Deere, Hesston, Vermeer & New Holland have been on top from time to time. Deere has more dealers nation wide so if every dealer would sell one thay are a major player. All these guys sell between 1500- 3000 balers a year. Year in year out Hesston has sold more numbers from 1996-1999 because of the cheapest price on a 4x4 baler. Vermeer with the introduction of the Rebel line 2 years ago has taken the top spot. NH & JD are all very close with NH sales slipping a little lately. Just remember all 4 balers will bale hay. Cattle prices effect all of these MFG sales. If we have $2 corn the baler sales are usually flat but let the corn prices get to $3 /BU and baler sales start to increase. NO rain and nobody sells balers. Many factors are involved in the USA market, but all 4 of these balers are AMERICAN made.
cowboydoc
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I don't understand how you can say that deere isn't #1 when every report I've seen shows that deere is #1 in sales. I called NH, Hesston, and JD and asked who was #1 in round balers sold and they all said JD. The #'s you posted about the # of balers sold I'm sure is not privvy information. I would think you would want to give some sources to make yourself more credible.
I was emailed by a very reliable party that that data can be shared as long as the source is identifyed and it isn't posted directly. The things I'm asking for certainly isn't propietary information anyway. ie who's #1 in round baler sales, the source that says jd diamond belts strip leaves, where the parts are made for jd, etc.
Also over the last year there have been several posts where you call other credible sources like Peter and Jim from First Choice and Carver as not being truthful but we're all supposed to believe all that you say about everything and you claim propietary information when anyone asks you to verify.
I have spent quite alot of time in research and I know how a person can skew "research and reports" to say anything that they want. I'm not saying you are or you aren't and I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's just that you state this is what you do and we're supposed to believe as gospel what you say and then say you can't share the information that backs up what you say.
Most people on here gladly share their sources and give credit for it. The other 80% is our opinions. If alot of this stuff is your opinion of what is going on is your opinon then great, but if it's actual verifiable information I don't see the harm in sharing that.
I was emailed by a very reliable party that that data can be shared as long as the source is identifyed and it isn't posted directly. The things I'm asking for certainly isn't propietary information anyway. ie who's #1 in round baler sales, the source that says jd diamond belts strip leaves, where the parts are made for jd, etc.
Also over the last year there have been several posts where you call other credible sources like Peter and Jim from First Choice and Carver as not being truthful but we're all supposed to believe all that you say about everything and you claim propietary information when anyone asks you to verify.
I have spent quite alot of time in research and I know how a person can skew "research and reports" to say anything that they want. I'm not saying you are or you aren't and I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's just that you state this is what you do and we're supposed to believe as gospel what you say and then say you can't share the information that backs up what you say.
Most people on here gladly share their sources and give credit for it. The other 80% is our opinions. If alot of this stuff is your opinion of what is going on is your opinon then great, but if it's actual verifiable information I don't see the harm in sharing that.
Bird
Rest in Peace
I agree.
