Discbine help - newbie

[labsrus]

I hope some people can give me some help on this -
My father-in-law would like to get a discbine but we are both newbies to this. Can you give me some information about discbines compared to haybines? Also I see the word moco on some of the discbines - what does this mean?
Thanks for any help and opinions.
Doug

 

[rankrank1]

"Haybine = is actually a trademark name of New Holland. The have a sickle bar cutter and then pass through the rollers for conditioning. The haybine name frequently gets used improperly to other brands similar to how many people improperly refer to all locking pliers as "Vise-Grips" or photo copies as "Xerox" copies.

"MoCo" may be a trademark name for John Deere (not sure). Anyway it is an abbreviation for a mower conditioner that utilizes a sickle bar for the cutter and rollers for the conditioner. (i.e. it actually is the competitor's equivalent to the New Holland haybine). All other brands besides New Holland that utilize a sickle bar and roller conditioners will be called either moco's or mower conditioners.

As for Discmowers or discbines: they use disc blades to cut with instead of the sickle bar. The disc cutters can usually travel at much faster speeds as compared to a sickle type cutter. However the disc cutters are usually pricey and can be very expensive to repair. Generally speaking discbines are generally used by people who do lots of acres of hay due to their costs. Smaller operations typically go with either a basic sickle mower (no conditioning), a haybine or equivalent moco (which adds conditioning rollers), or another alternative is the drum mowers such as hay-maxx which cut fast like a disc mower but are much simpler in design to avoid the costly repairs. The drum mowers do not have conditioning rollers, but they allow cutting in wet and heavy dew-type conditions where sickle cutters are limited to slower speeds and drier post-dew conditons.

 

[JasG]

rankrank1:

Your almost right. Haybine is what NH refers to with sickle bar and conditioner. Diskbine is what they have been calling the disk mowers with conditioner.

John Deere has been calling any mower conditioner a MoCo. Right now Deere has dropped sickle bar mower conditioners from there line, they only sell disk mowers with conditioners.

As far as the differences, disk mowers are 2 to 4 times faster than a sickle bar mower. The basic maintenance is easier and cheaper. A complete set of knives is only a fraction the cost of a cutter bar and no guards to worry about. The speed is not only from going faster, but with a haybine it seems like the least little thing and you end up with a slug on the cutter bar and need to stop back up to clear it. Also finishing a field if you pick up a row already mowed a sickle bar will tend to drag that hay where a disk mower will just send it through the machine again. Disk mowers also have a choice of conditioners, rollers, be it steel, rubber, or urethane, or some kind of impeller. I have a good friend that I help with his haying and we went from a haybine to a disk MoCo 6 years ago and love it. It has the impeller and seem to do a very good job. Disk mower seem to handle wet hay better than a haybine and heavy hay.

Now when something does break, it can cost a lot. We have had 2 disk bearings go and it damaged sections of the cutter bar. Each time the cost was around $2500.00 having the work done at a dealer. I would also never run a disk mower of any kind without a cab tractor (most mfg recommend this in the specs). The reason being is when you hit a stone, even with the heavy curtain in the front they do fly where ever and at least 3 time over the years while I was mowing the cab has been hit. I know my friend has also said he was glad to have the cab for the same reason. Disk mowers also take more Hp to "start" and mow with than a regular sickle bar mower.

 

[rankrank1]

rankrank1:

Your almost right. Haybine is what NH refers to with sickle bar and conditioner...

JasG,

If I am almost right, then what was wrong? Your description of a haybine seems identical to my description. As for your claim that John Deere calls any mower conditioner a moco regardless of the cutter style, I can not really dispute it as I do not look at the brand new factory adds as I can not afford the new stuff. However, in almost all used adds that I look at; the word "disc" will preceed the word mower (for a mower only) or the word moco (a mower and a conditioner). Adds not specifying the word disc almost always utilize the sickle cutter- remembering that discbine is trademarked to New Holland for a disc cutter and conditioning system.

Lastly, good point of pointing out the need for a cab tractor when using disc type cutters. I have read many stories of shattered windows using the disc cutters - one can only imagine what might have happened if the cab had not been there for added safety.

 

[flusher]

I hope some people can give me some help on this -
My father-in-law would like to get a discbine but we are both newbies to this. Can you give me some information about discbines compared to haybines? Also I see the word moco on some of the discbines - what does this mean?
Thanks for any help and opinions.
Doug

One other thing--for a given size mower, haybines (the sicklebar type) generally require less pto hp than the same size discbine. So be careful when you're eyeballing discbines that your tractor can handle the hp load.

 

[flusher]

One final thing--discbine blade turn at very high speed and can toss rocks and debris in your direction. That's why a cab is a nice safety feature when using that type of mower. I've seen several tractor cabs in for repair of windows that were pretty well smashed by discbine debris. Personally, I wouldn't rely solely on the discbine curtains to keep flying stuff from heading my way. I'd provide backup. For example, when I use my brush hog mower, I have an expanded metal panel attached via hose clamps to my ROPS on my Mahindra 5525 to protect my backside.

 

[labsrus]

I just want to thank all of you for the help and descriptions of the 2 types of cutters. Now to determine if the discbine would be good for us.
Again, a big thanks for the help!
Doug

 

[Barry Bowen]

Most of the information you guys have put up is pretty well spot on interms of the differences between a haybine and an discbine. Haybines take much less power and are nowhere near as quick. Discbines are horsepower pigs. To really run one you need 100 HP to not work the tractor to death. Discbines are as fast as the field is smooth, and the operator has guts and skill. I have an old New Idea 5209. LOVE IT. Will not go back to a haybine by choice anyway. Pulled it with a 706 IH turned up to around 80 HP. It was just not enough in heavy first cutting. Pull it now with a 1066, what a difference. Just for fun, I have pulled it for short experimental time in 7th gear running around 12MPH in heavy heavy first cut. It did the job, and did it well. Normally run in 5th and 6th gear 5-7 MPH about 4-5 acres an hour. Once you use a discbine or disc mower you will never want to go back.

Maintenance wise there are two basic cutter bar designs, segmented, or one piece with idlers. The segments like NH and any AGCO machine (still makes the first design they sold and is still quite popular) have their advantages in that if one cutter goes down it is cheaper and easier to fix. Machines from Kuhn for example are one piece with idlers in an oil bath. Disavantage, one gear or bearing goes down you usually loose the entire cutter bar like the 2500 number from JD. Conditioning can be done with rollers or flails. If you are doing alfalfa you want the rollers, much easier on the leaves. If you do grass you want the flails as the make the grass dry faster by striping some of the wax off of the leaves instead of bending stems.

If you have the HP to turn it and can afford it get the discbine will not disapoint. If you are only doing a little bit and time is not critical the haybine will get the job done just fine.

 

[bill in ny]

barry, you're new idea must pull hard. i pull a 9' new holland with a 75pto hp. tractor and i can go as fast as i want.

 

[JasG]

"

"MoCo" may be a trademark name for John Deere (not sure). Anyway it is an abbreviation for a mower conditioner that utilizes a sickle bar for the cutter and rollers for the conditioner.
AsQUOTE]

The is where I think you are not correct. MoCo goes back I believe to the 900 series disc mowers, and has been on the disc machines since at least 1996, I think earlier. I didn't see it on a sickle bar till later in the 1990's. A farm near my dads house had an early 90's sickle bar with conditioner Deere and I do not remember it saying MoCo. Basically I believe it was alway to mean mower conditioner, didn't make a difference of the type.

 

[JasG]

The very early disc mowers (late 1980's) I have read all (Deere and NH were the only 2 at the time I think) used Kuhn cutter bars. Since then most now make there own and are segmented. One more thing about Kuhn I don't like, they offer or did offer a impeller that they called a comb conditioner. The impeller lined up with grooves in the hood and would strip the plants. Unless you have only straight grass, not a very good machine to have.

 

[slowzuki]

The New Idea 5209 is actually one of the easiest pulling disc mower conditioners made, if that helps you compare.

Sickle bar mower conditioners are getting expensive to repair now too. New parts like a wobble box or replacing all the sections is shocking. A few driveshafts or a gearbox in the NH489 will take you into the thousands quickly and they are hard to work on.

I bought a 10 ft mounted disc mower conditioner last year and a 80 pto hp tractor to run it. The tractor is barely enough in the hilly fields requiring me to drop a gear. My fields are rough but I can usually run 7 mph or so vs the 4-5 mph I used to with the haybine. In second cut in my smoother fields I can it 10 mph easily before struggling to stay on the seat.

My mower has quick change knives, in 5 mins a full set replacement is done. Most parts are quickly changeable, no major disassembly. Maintenance is simple.

It does use more fuel to mow a given field which irritates me but I'm using a much larger tractor too. I would not go back to a haybine for my use. Maybe if I was an alfalfa grower with nice flat fields I'd have a big hydroswing but other than that, no way.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

for guys concerned about repairs. New Holland now offers shear hubs for each disc. Availble new or as a refit to some of the older machines. The upgrade is priced reasonably. With those in place hitting rocks just shears a part rather than knocking out somthing more serious.

 

[JasG]

One huge advantage of a disc mower we found with being able to mow when it was wet. The 1st year we had it and again last year, if we couldn't mow as the rain ended, or right after it ended we could not have gotten hay in at all. Our old haybines never could have done that. Add in the speed and we were able to make hay with a 3-4 day window after a couple days of rain.

Something also, if are familar with haybines, read the manual on the discbine about set up. I've helped a few people who bought a disc and hated it the 1st time the used it due to they set it up like a haybine. Ther biggest differences I remember are the cutter bar in a disc I have found needs to be tipped down, and the header needs to have less lift. I'm going by memory so I might be off but the NH 469's and the 489's I think the springs we used to set so that 50lbs or about that would lift it off the ground on each corner. The disc I think is 125 lbs (again I'm going be memory, I may be off a a little). This does make the whole unit pull a lot harder. The cutter bar depends on the crop, grass you could probably leave it a little flat, but any down crop needs it tipped to lift it through the machine.

I don't know anyone who has gone from a haybine to a disc that would go back.

 

[kwswan]

for guys concerned about repairs. New Holland now offers shear hubs for each disc. Availble new or as a refit to some of the older machines. The upgrade is priced reasonably. With those in place hitting rocks just shears a part rather than knocking out somthing more serious.

the shear hub retrofit kits are well worth the money. i retrofitted my 1411 nh with them 2 years ago & have been very pleased. it is not fun tearing the cutter bar apart in the field to replace modules because someone forgot about that truck axle they drove into the ground for a dog tieout.

 

[labsrus]

Wow, again thanks for all the opinions and help on this. I am glad I at least posted about this because of one thing that we did not know and that is horsepower!
From what I am reading, a JD 5220 will not be a good tractor ( because of horsepower) with a 8 or 9 footer?? All opinions are very helpful. The terrain we have is pretty flat and not rough.

 

[Barry Bowen]

JasG,

You are dead on right about being able to cut wet. I do mostly all grass with my old 5209 (one of the last 100 gray machines they made) and have seen that it will dry faster if I cut it right after the rain, than waiting a day for the excess to dry out. I think running it through the rollers spins some water off, makes a more even coating on the hay, and does away with the large droplets that the rain leaves on the grass leaves. I also saw when I had a field that was partly cut before the overnight rain, and then finished the next morning, that the few rows that I ran back through the discbine and through the rollers dried a day faster then the stuff i just teddered. I do not know why, but that was what it did.

 

[AKfish]

Drum vs disc...?

Just looking at the machines - they look pretty much the same. What's the difference? And is one inherently a better design?

AKfish

 

[JasG]

Drum vs disc...?

Just looking at the machines - they look pretty much the same. What's the difference? And is one inherently a better design?

AKfish

I haven't seen may drum mowers, this is based on what I have seen. A drum mower is driven from the top, and I haven't seen one with a conditioner or very wide and all I have seen are 3 point hitch models or front mount.

A disk mower comes in 3 point, trailed, front mount and self powered. They can have several different styles of conditioner and no conditioner. The disc's are driven from the bottom by intermeshing gears.

As far as the way they cut from what I have read it would be the same.



I don't know of a major brand that makes a drum mower at this time. That doesn't mean a drum mower isn't a good product, just that JD, Claas, Krone, etc don't make any. Due to the conditioner I like the disk mower.

Never seen a drum mower this large.
http://www.claas.com/countries/generator/cl-pw/en/claas-US/products/fem/cougar/start,lang=en_US.html

 

[rankrank1]

Drum vs disc...?

Just looking at the machines - they look pretty much the same. What's the difference? And is one inherently a better design?

AKfish

The drum mowers (such as the CC Haymaxx) will not have any conditioning system after the cutter, but from what I have read cut pretty much identically to a comparable disc mower alone.
The main benenfits to the drum mower is that it is much cheaper to purchase new as compared to a similar disc mower alone. Additionally, the drum mowers usually have a much less complex gearbox/driveline system as compared to a disc mower so you do not incurr the future expensive rebuild the gearboxes senario that many disc mowers are prone to. Lastly, you can usually get smaller drum mowers that will work with smaller tractor hp as low as 30 hp that are not offered in the disc mowers.
People claim you can cut as fast as you dare ride in the tractor seat and early in the morning while the grass is still wet with the drum mowers (same as with the disc mowers).