Dish Network or DirecTV

fivestring · Feb 23, 2004

"This dragnet is catching innocent security professionals, hobbyists, and entrepreneurs." 

If these people are not using the card that was supplied by DTV, they are pirating and are anything but innocent. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Use of any other card than was provided by DTV is pirating. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif That is fraud. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif That is a felony and they should be caught. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Like MikePA said, it's in the terms of use agreement. If they don't want to use the legal card, they should switch to cable.

public's right to use technology." 

The public does not have the right to use technology to illegally obtain television programming that they do not pay for. The satellite was not put into orbit for the public to use at will, it was put there for DTV to make $$$ on.

OkeeDon · Feb 23, 2004

The above comments are correct as far as the use of fraudulent cards in satellite systems, but I'm not sure you all read exactly what Bucksnort said. Direct is not targeting people they can prove are using the cards in the receivers; they have gotten lists of names of people who have purchased smart card programming equipment, and are suing them. There are other, legitimate uses of smart card technology besides the programming of satellite receiver cards

Now, I grant you that the other uses may be pretty esoteric and most of the people who bought the programmers are probably using them for satellite cards, but that's not the point. The point is that Direct is assuming everyone who purchased a programmer is guilty until proved innocent. Legitimate users are being forced to spend a fortune defending themselves against these suits. Many of the cases have been tossed, because Direct can't prove how they were used.

PBMAX · Feb 23, 2004

Talked to Erica at DTV and she told me they do not curently offer a free dish upgrade with the purchase of the TIVO. It would be $49 plus $15 ship and handling to get a new oval 3 system dish set up...

Also unfortunatley they only offer one Tivo at $99 to a house hold and I already have mine so any new (2nd) Tivowould be off the shelf...

That said, I will probable buy the new dish and musltiswitch (if needed) and install it my self along with what ever model TIVO I want...

fivestring · Feb 23, 2004

There must be more to the story than whet folks are hearing.
There must be other links such as:
The person has DTV but has basic programming and bought the technology. (2+2=4 in this case).

What other uses or needs are there for the average person to have the smart-card technology?
I don't see any, that's why I'm asking.

aloha · Feb 23, 2004

( There must be more to the story than whet folks are hearing.
There must be other links such as:
The person has DTV but has basic programming and bought the technology. (2+2=4 in this case). )

I know a guy who is being sued by DirecTV. Here's the basis:

His name (a name which appears 42 times in the local white pages, not counting listings with initials instead of full first name) appeared on a list of persons who had ordered an electronic device which could be used as a component in a satellite TV receiver, among other uses. The records showed a ship-to address which matched his grandmother in a nearby city, and the item was to be shipped via UPS and and to be paid COD.

That's all DirecTV had on which to base their lawsuit.

To the best of my knowledge, this guy has never had anything more than rabbit ears on his TV - no satellite, no cable. His grandmother says he never received any deliveries, and remembers no COD deliveries. (The COD charge was to be over $200, so presumably she would remember.) DirecTV could not produce a single document to show the item was ever actually shipped, let alone that it was delivered and the COD charge paid.

DirecTV sued this guy under a federal law that enables them, if they win, to recover their attorney fees from him in addition to "damages" up to $10,000, but if he wins, the law does not give him a right to recover his attorney fees. When Congress passed that one, they were protecting the poor corporation from such rich and powerful guys as my friend (he's an apprentice electrician, his wife is a school teacher, so you can see why DirecTV should fear their financial resources).

The last I knew, DirecTV was refusing to drop the lawsuit and would not return phone calls and letters from his lawyers who were trying to settle the case (he figured that even if he "won," it would cost him several thousand dollars for his attorneys, and he could not afford the principle of proving himself in the right).

ducati996 · Feb 23, 2004

Well there is a lot of people who got caught buying from places that catered to illegal activity and hacking DTV's signal.
If your name came up after raids and seizures, expect a letter followed by a lawsuit later. Are you proficient enough to explain the differences of Smart card technology? and why you needed one? Good luck defending yourself, and don't forget they will ask family and friends for depositions when it goes to court...How long will your white lie hold up? Are you really innocent? 99% knew exactly what they were doing...
As for Alhoa's story there are some major pieces missing...
This guy can go Pro Se ( defend himself) if its truly all they have on him...doubt it, they dont persue if the case isn't somewhat strong (Civil Suit)...Don't do the crime if you cant pay the fine....

It has nothing to do with the service, and only helped increase DTV's popularity.
The HDTV offerings are excellent, along with the sports pkgs...

Duc

PBMAX · Feb 23, 2004

GEEEESH !!!!!What ever happend to inocent until proven guilty???
But it's that kind crap that makes many folk get a bad taste for corperate america...
A company protecting its investment is one thing but head hunting is BS...

OkeeDon · Feb 23, 2004

( There must be more to the story than whet folks are hearing.)

Nope. As the above story shows, they are being massively abusive, and the call for investigation has real merit.

I have an acquaintance (not a friend, and I can't even remember his name, right now) who is involved in programming satellite cards. He has the smart card programmer and downloads the programming programs (if that makes sense) from the web. He's always been careful not to use his name or address. He programs the cards for his own use and for a few other folks who contribute towards the costs. I don't support or condone what he is doing, but he has his own rationalizations, which make for interesting listening.

The point is, while he is not being sued (because he has been so careful), he is tied in to the underground network of people doing the same thing. Many of them have been sued. Some have settled; some have had the suit dropped; some have fought and won; and some have fought and lost. It very much depends on the courts in the area.

There was a newspaper article in our local papers a few weeks ago stating that Direct had sued 12 local people. None of the people I know who are programming the cards (and I know of more than one, although I can't remember any of their names) were among the 12. It's just a tip of the iceberg; I would guess several hundred (if not thousands) of local people have used the cards.

The point is, Direct is using these suits as a way to throw a scare into all the people involved. It's working; several people have indicated to me that they are no longer programming, distributing or using the cards. Frankly, I'm glad I never got involved, although I have to admit it was tempting.

As to what else they can be used for, a Google search for "smart cards" is illuminating. Here is one article that provides an overview. The technology is becoming so inexpensive that the uses are spreading. It is enough that some people might purchase the equipment just for experimentation.

crown · Feb 23, 2004

Fishman,
That's my biggest gripe with both companies /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif they bend over backwards to get new customers but seemingly are not very concerned with there current customers.

ducati996 · Feb 24, 2004

Its funny to hear people whine when they get caught, and declare they are innocent. As OKeeDon describes how tempting it was, and to listen to the people who programmed and downloaded the programs.

The free ride ended for these folks getting the free TV.. Now they have to pay the price either $3500 or $4500 once the civil suit is served or more if they were a dealer. Stop the whining and crying and declaring your innocense and saying how injust it is...If you feel competent enough to explain ISO7816 compliant devices, Atmels chips, software, etc and why you were downloading a specific file from a raided website, or were a paid member to a known hacking site, credit card info, mailing address then go for it !! Can they explain all that and not get caught up in a lie ?
Never had DTV but they find a system on your roof? Family members will be depositioned as well...

And DTV is the bad guy protecting their services? Not at all...
I just hate when people arent truthful and honest and expect others to believe their lies and dishonesty...just take it like a responsible person and pay the consequences for your actions...and leave the whining where it belongs-in the trash

The service is great if you dont steal it and dont get caught otherwise..

Duc /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

fivestring · Feb 24, 2004

Amen, Duc.

OkeeDon · Feb 24, 2004

Understand, I'm not defending those who did the deed. But, my understanding is that Direct's methods have roped in some people who have used the equipment for other purposes. Yes, they can defend themselves and likely get off the hook, but the "guilty until proved innocent" tactics cost them real resources in order to defend themselves. My beef is not against Direct defending their rights; it's the way in which they are using blanket suits without regard for the costs to the potential target. A shotgun blast will likely hit some of the guilty, but it might take out some of the innocent in the process.

fivestring · Feb 24, 2004

"Direct's methods have roped in some people who have used the equipment for other purposes."

Don, what are purposes other than to pirate a signal?

aloha · Feb 24, 2004

( As for Alhoa's story there are some major pieces missing... )

No, that was a complete description of the evidence DirecTV said it had as the basis to sue him. The case is DirecTV, Inc. v. Anderson, case # 03-CV-00688-HO, U.S. Dist. Court for Dist. of Oregon. I was his attorney until it became apparent this lawsuit will not be resolved until well after the time I plan to retire. My own investigation found absolutely nothing more to suggest he had done what he was accused of.

( This guy can go Pro Se )

Right. He can file the motions, pick a jury, raise objections to evidence, examine and cross-examine witnesses, present his own evidence, and argue what the law means, and won't be at a disadvantage. And it won't be a problem for him and his wife to take two, maybe three, weeks off work for this. And this should not be a stressful experience, it should be an exciting life adventure.

( they dont persue if the case isn't somewhat strong)

I trust you make the same assumption when you read of an individual suing a business.
By pursuing marginal cases, DirecTV may be even more effective in creating the fear to deter those who might steal their services than if they limit litigation to instances in which evidence is substantial. And so long as the one-way attorney fee recovery statute tilts the playing field in their favor they have little incentive to limit their lawsuits.

Everyone should be free to do business with DirecTV, but should be aware of the type of corporate citizen they are. Those who prefer not to patronize such a business should have viable alternatives.

ducati996 · Feb 24, 2004

Then file a motion to dismiss or disclosure before a Judge....I suggest you find someone who can do the job correctly if you cant....

I can look at PACER records to see whats missing in this story....

Dont expect us to believe this on face value... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Duc

ducati996 · Feb 24, 2004

I see his name on the PACER records his first name is Bob...
I guess the first question did he forget to respond in a timely fashion and get a default judgment against him? You have to reply when served - but you knew that

When I have time I will find out more info...

Duc

OkeeDon · Feb 24, 2004

( Don, what are purposes other than to pirate a signal? )

That was covered in the link I posted above about smart card technology. The satellite cards are nothing but smart cards (cards similar to credit cards with embedded and programmable chips). They are used for a variety of other purposes. I heard that someone had reprogrammed their American Express smart card to decode satellite broadcasts, but that's probably an apocryphal story; I don't know enough about the technology to know if that could be done.

I do know that I have a friend who is seriously into systems programming. He has been building and buying EPROM programmers of various types for years. One of his hobbies is reprogramming fuel injection chips for cars to get different performance. He's the type that would (and probably does) have a smart card programmer, even though he doesn't own a TV.

ducati996 · Feb 25, 2004

( ( Don, what are purposes other than to pirate a signal? )

That was covered in the link I posted above about smart card technology. The satellite cards are nothing but smart cards (cards similar to credit cards with embedded and programmable chips). They are used for a variety of other purposes. I heard that someone had reprogrammed their American Express smart card to decode satellite broadcasts, but that's probably an apocryphal story; I don't know enough about the technology to know if that could be done.
a TV. )

OkeeDon,
They look the same to the novice but they are distinctly different. Satellite cards have ASIC processors with very specific commands for decrypting Video packets...nothing else is like it because NDS and DTV own the rights...
Dont listen to the wannabes who say the Amex card and satellite cards can be interchangable...anybody who thinks this can be used as an excuse will be sadly mistaken...
Your friend would use an EEPROM programmer, not a smart card programmer or ISO 7816 device...The progammers you mention arent really true ISO7816 devices and here is why:
There are going to be a few details which everyone will need to get straight if they wish to use this defense: The underlying problem with the 'legitimate use' defense resides in the fact that the iso 7816 readers which are sold and used in the dss community are fundamantally different from the readers used by the rest of the smartcard industry...

The difference lies in the way the reader communicates; a few years back, the various smartcard manufacturers and developers formed a standard which created a single communication platform by which all readers and software can be used easily; This standard is called PCSC and the specification can be found at http://www.pcscworkgroup.com/ . The basis of the standard and what makes the readers different is that a PCSC compliant reader contains all the firmware on the reader, which allows the reader to be recognized by the computer operating system and any of the programs running with the PCSC standard. The end result is that any PCSC complaint reader can be used with any PSCS complaint software without any compatibility problems.

The iso 7816 readers which we are all familiar with and are used for the purpose of dss hacking do not conform to this standard; these are what are known as "dumbmouse readers" since they only contain the basic rs232 serial interface and will not work directly with PCSC software.

If DTV ends up going to court to fight over the legality of the programmers, they will use this issue as their "ace in the hole" as it is highly unlikely that if someone was purchasing programmers from a dss website for their company to facilitate secure logon, they would have a very difficult time getting them working. They will also use the fact that not one piece of dss software has ever been designed to use the PCSC standard; something that should have been done long ago to promote cross-usability between the different devices..

Its even worse to prove legal uses for "Unlooper's", bootloaders, programmed cards, Atmels, etc...

You really have no chance to be successful in making your case if you get a letter or summons. People are fooling themselves if they feel they will be successful in just saying
its a legal device with many uses. Be prepared to back it up along with family and possible friends...

Just becareful and dont listen to wishful thinking people. They will sell you down the river before you know it and realize it...

Duc

OkeeDon · Feb 25, 2004

I'm pretty sure that your use of the term "you" in your well-conceived explanation is intended to be a generic term, but, just to be on the safe side, I have to say, I have never purchased, owned or used any of the devices mentioned. My interest in this subject is entirely because of what appears to be draconian methods on the part of the plaintiffs. It's my understanding that the purchase of such devices is legal; it's the use of them that may be illegal, and it's my understanding that Direct is suing people solely based on the purchase. Those who have not used them for illegal purposes are being forced to expend resources (time and money) to defend themselves. One possible analogy that comes to mind would be that everyone who ever purchased a radar detecter would automatically be considered guilty of speeding and fined, without proof they ever were speeding.

BUCKSNORT · Feb 25, 2004

thanks there is intelligent life out here .score yourself 10 additional bonus points Don.the smart card programmers are used in parking garages ,home depot gift cards,online security and on and on.contrary to other posts the lawsuit my son is in, he owns a Laundromat,they use ,i don't know the brand name,programmer for their washer/dryers .Mr dtv says anyone who uses a programmer is associated with stealing.well I know my son and his business and it's all a bunch of Hewey.that said I will not use their services,DTV, and will not any longer recommend them to anyone else.as I had in the past.
the dialog for a simple recommendation has extrapolated to another subject.OVER AND OUT! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif