Distance between vehicles at a red light

[N80]

You're right of course. Suffice it to say, if there is room, I get in it. No roads, highways or intersections in this nation were designed for cars stopping 1/2 or 1 whole car length apart.........regardless of what the driver manual says. As in all things, there is the manual and there is reality. They rarely agree.

 

[Bird]

You're right of course. Suffice it to say, if there is room, I get in it. No roads, highways or intersections in this nation were designed for cars stopping 1/2 or 1 whole car length apart.........regardless of what the driver manual says. As in all things, there is the manual and there is reality. They rarely agree.

George, it's hard to believe that you could be that badly mistaken. Or should I assume that you're just kidding to see what kind of response you get?

 

[N80]

No, Bird, I'm completely serious. Yes, I stated my case provocatively but this is something I've thought about a good bit long before this thread began. And suffice it to say that if I'm disagreeing with Bird, I'm not doing it lightly.

So here is the deal. Take your typical Walmart Way, as I call it. There is one in nearly every moderate sized town in the US. Shopping, fast food, stop lights every few blocks, 4 to 6 six lanes, left and right turn lanes periodically some with turn lights, some without. Even in moderate traffic when the light turns red cars come to a stop in the middle lanes and frequently block access to the turn lanes for the cars behind them, which then add, unnecessarily to the line of traffic desiring to go straight. The light turns green and the cars turning left often don't get to the turn lane in time to turn because of its shorter duration. Because of that, more cars going straight also miss the light. This would be compounded, and often is, by people stopping 1/2 to 1 car length before the person in front of them. If EVERYONE did this there would literally be grid lock on such roads in the town I live in. I drive such roads four times a day every day and I watch it happen. It is not a figment.

And to what end? What is gained by stopping a car length behind the next car? Nothing. There is no real safety in this. A buffer in case of a rear end collision is hardly any reason to double or multiply half again the existing traffic. If a car rear ends you fast enough that distance is irrelevant any way. Slow enough and it also doesn't matter.

In addition, when people do this, and you know you've watch it happen, they tend to creep forward as they anticipate the light change. This creates an accordion effect which is not only not helpful but also retards the normal response to the green light and creates a dangerous stop-go situation when the light changes. This makes a rear end collision all the more likely.

So, Bird, even though I ALWAYS respect your opinion, this is one we'll have to disagree on. I watch this practice compromise safety and traffic flow every day. It does not provide enough benefit to justify its risk on typical high traffic roads as they exist today.

 

[Bird]

So, Bird, even though I ALWAYS respect your opinion, this is one we'll have to disagree on. I watch this practice compromise safety and traffic flow every day. It does not provide enough benefit to justify its risk on typical high traffic roads as they exist today.

Yep, we'll just have to disagree on this one. Naturally, if you pack cars (or anything else) closer together, you can get more in the same space, and leaving a reasonable distance between them may inconvenience you if you're wanting to get into the left turn lane, and yep, I've been a bit frustrated by that situation a few times myself. And I sorta violate my own policies by moving forward to allow a car behind me to get to the left turn lane when I see that. But I cannot see how leaving space between vehicles could ever compromise safety; quite the contrary in fact. And the overall result of getting cars close together just does not help the traffic flow situation. Traffic engineering is the only thing that can change such situations. And of course I base my opinion on both personal observation, as well as being a graduate of the Northwestern University's Traffic Institute, and having spent some time as a Lieutenant in the Traffic Division of the Dallas Police Department, during which time I frequently consulted with the city traffic engineer. And of course I also assisted an attorney in the city attorney's office in a complete overall of the city's traffic code.

But of course I also recognize the fact that I retired from that profession some 26 years ago, and some things do change in that time.:laughing:

 

[N80]

But I cannot see how leaving space between vehicles could ever compromise safety; quite the contrary in fact.

Well, as I mentioned, I don't think there is any actual safety benefit either. That's the thing. You get almost no benefit from leaving space but you create traffic burdens that extend well behind you. And I do feel that blocking turn lanes and entrances and exits to the main branch of traffic just increases traffic. And I suspect any traffic engineer would agree that traffic density is one of the primary sources of accidents. If there was, in fact, some real measurable benefit from leaving a large space between stopped cars, it would be a different story.

Traffic engineering is the only thing that can change such situations.

I totally agree with that. But as it is in virtually all the towns I live near, the traffic engineers and DOT have either chosen not to or are incapable of (for many valid reasons) designing a system that would allow for that sort of spacing between vehicles IF EVERYONE DID IT, which would, as mentioned, extend stopped traffic half again to twice as long as it would be when people stop close to one another.

And that's the rub. Even if we could prove some benefit to leaving a car length between stopped cars and pronounced it to be the right, proper, safe and moral thing to do (like not running a red light) and expected everyone to do it no matter what (like not running a red light) then the traffic system we currently have would be even less capable than it currently is of providing safety and efficiency and would lead to a situation were doing the right thing for yourself creates hazards for others.

And the overall result of getting cars close together just does not help the traffic flow situation.

Sure it does. It leaves access to turn lanes, forward traffic, exits and entrances for a longer period of time and for more cars. Clearly, beyond a certain level of traffic density there are diminishing returns but even then the returns would never diminish into meaninglessness. Blocked access ALWAYS leads to heavier traffic.

Traffic engineering is the only thing that can change such situations. And of course I base my opinion on both personal observation, as well as being a graduate of the Northwestern University's Traffic Institute, and having spent some time as a Lieutenant in the Traffic Division of the Dallas Police Department, during which time I frequently consulted with the city traffic engineer. And of course I also assisted an attorney in the city attorney's office in a complete overall of the city's traffic code.

You are FAR more qualified to speak to this question than I am but so far I think my logic is fairly sound, unless I've really left something out of the equation, which is a very real possibility.

But of course I also recognize the fact that I retired from that profession some 26 years ago, and some things do change in that time.:laughing:

I highly doubt that those 26 years have done anything to diminish your astuteness in these matters, but I do believe that the traffic engineering where I live was, in large part, designed to cope with the traffic of 26 years ago. There is only so much you can do with the traffic when you cannot significantly widen the thoroughfare to handle the exponential growth like some sleepy little mill towns like mine have experienced in the last 15 years.

 

[Bird]

I do believe that the traffic engineering where I live was, in large part, designed to cope with the traffic of 26 years ago. There is only so much you can do with the traffic when you cannot significantly widen the thoroughfare to handle the exponential growth like some sleepy little mill towns like mine have experienced in the last 15 years.

We sure agree there.:laughing: You should see the incredible amount of construction going on right now in this area with I-35E from Dallas to the north side of Denton, FM 2181 west from I-35E just north of Lake Lewisville, US 183 from Dallas through Irving to the DFW Airport, I-635 across the north side of Dallas, and many, many others from city streets to Interstate Highways. At the same time, the local newspaper has been running some stories about the pot holes and terrible condition of many existing city streets. And more big companies are moving their headquarters to this area, big expensive homes under construction everywhere you look as well as huge new apartment complexes being built.

 

[N80]

Don't get me started on building new roads when the existing roads are falling apart! They're doing that here.

 

[RobertBrown]

You're right.....Bird's wrong.
This has become a pet peeve with me as of late. Last year I had to travel to a different location to work than I had been traveling for many years. This issue of space became very apparent to me as a result....left hand turn lanes are way too short for rush hour traffic.
I see people leaving a full car length....or more....and then creeping up as they finish checking their cell phones and get impatient waiting. They look up from their phones and then creep up a few feet. Now, the commuter behind.....who is still texting has 1-2 car lengths between cars in between.
Meanwhile.... the through lane is blocked with those who are not going to pass through the light and make a u-turn at the next intersection are stopped with turn signals on ...obstructing traffic. Those who are not paying attention, traveling too fast are now slamming on their brakes or rear ending stopped motorists in the right of way....very dangerous
This scenario is much more problematic then the one where you risk running into the car in front, should they stop abruptly after leaving when the light turns green.
The "old school rule of leaving a car length needs to be put on the shelf next to card board oil cans...

I get as close as possible to the car in front...then pay careful attention when the light turns.

 

[k0ua]

I will continue leaving space thank you. For a lot of reasons. I will continue practicing situational awareness. If you all want to bunch up to where you cannot move, have at it. I am good with your decision. Different strokes etc.

 

[N80]

I will continue leaving space thank you. For a lot of reasons.

Everyone has reasons for the way they drive. Some create problems for others. Some do not. But I sure bet you're glad when the folks in front of you pull up enough so you can access the turn lane.

I will continue practicing situational awareness.

Which is the most important aspect of driving and the least practiced. But if the situation is that you are parked a car length behind someone at a light and because of that you are blocking the turn lane, are you aware enough to move up and let them get by? Most people don't. Even when you give a polite tap on the horn.

The thing is, I don't ever remember this being a "rule" or even a suggestion. I took driver's ed. I studied and passed the license exams. Yes, it was decades ago but I don't think I forgotten any of the other minutia that comes into play in day-to-day driving. My parents never mentioned it while teaching me to drive even my uber cautious mother. I've never seen a policeman or law enforcement pull or ticket anyone for how close they _stopped_ behind someone. I've never seen a public service announcement about it. I've never heard anyone complain about it on Tirade Tuesday on the radio. It might be in the manual in my state. It might be in the manual of all states. But if it is or was, it seems that it is possibly the most neglected law on the books. And for good reason, no doubt.