DIY poor men's FEL brush cutter

[WinterDeere]

Hawkin
That depends on the torque / HP desired as well as hydraulic motor speed.

Rule of thumb for hydraulic pump is one HP will provide one GPM flow at 1500 PSI. Hydraulic motor would be similar.

Following this, a mower that requires a 25 HP PTO would require 25 GPM at 1500 PSI, or any combination thereof. Way beyond most CUT's.

 

[2manyrocks]

Good Works Tractor did a review of a hydraulic front mounted cutter on the 25hp Summit tractor on Youtube.

I've wondered about mounting a self powered flail to a FEL. 48" MATV120 Flail Mower, Self-propelled with Gasoline Engine 680665944811 | eBay

 

[MossRoad]

Next question, this is for you hydraulic experts. Could you retrofit a hydraulic motor on one of these to run off your front 3rd function hydraulics? What size/torque motor would this take? Then you could indeed run it vertical to mow the brush on the edge of the road.

You'd first have to see the gallons per minute (GPM) and PSI that your tractor can provide.

From that you'd have to determine a hydraulic motor displacement that can provide the desired blade RPMs at the GPM and PSI that your tractor can deliver.

Then you'd have to consider how to cool the hydraulic fluid.

That's most likely an issue. My machine is entirely hydraulic. A hydraulic ram like on a tractor 3pt hitch doesn't generate much heat as it's only used intermittently. A hydraulic motor is another animal. And a hydraulic motor under load (like grass blades and even air) combined with the plumbing (fittings, elbows, etc all cause friction heat) causes a lot of heat. That has to be dissipated through volume and a cooler.

My machine with just a 25HP gas engine running it, has 4 hydraulic wheel motors and still provides 8GPM at 2500PSI to the mower deck, and has a 10 gallon hydraulic reservoir and a cooler with a fan.

So those are just some of the issues to consider.

 

[2515R Dude]

Good Works Tractor did a review of a hydraulic front mounted cutter on the 25hp Summit tractor on Youtube.

I've wondered about mounting a self powered flail to a FEL. 48" MATV120 Flail Mower, Self-propelled with Gasoline Engine 680665944811 | eBay

I think it is the same approach as i did.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

You'd first have to see the gallons per minute (GPM) and PSI that your tractor can provide.

From that you'd have to determine a hydraulic motor displacement that can provide the desired blade RPMs at the GPM and PSI that your tractor can deliver.

Then you'd have to consider how to cool the hydraulic fluid.

That's most likely an issue. My machine is entirely hydraulic. A hydraulic ram like on a tractor 3pt hitch doesn't generate much heat as it's only used intermittently. A hydraulic motor is another animal. And a hydraulic motor under load (like grass blades and even air) combined with the plumbing (fittings, elbows, etc all cause friction heat) causes a lot of heat. That has to be dissipated through volume and a cooler.

My machine with just a 25HP gas engine running it, has 4 hydraulic wheel motors and still provides 8GPM at 2500PSI to the mower deck, and has a 10 gallon hydraulic reservoir and a cooler with a fan.

So those are just some of the issues to consider.

Thank you for that info.!

 

[HawkinsHollow]

way to go, order one

Too rich for my blood!! I am on the poor man's path like you. I was just saying it is possible.

 

[2manyrocks]

Tractor manufacturers could make this more feasible if they'd put front mount PTOs on tractors. I think Kubota has some kind of front mount mower for one of the smaller tractors. Summit posted they are evaluating one that I think would be driven by their mid mount PTO. But apart from these, I don't think there are that many factory options until you get into the realm of some very expensive tractors.

It's rare to even see a DIY mounting a self powered cutter on a FEL.

 

[4570Man]

Help out one of your slower readers here -- why? The operator's not going to be in the plane of the spinning blades or in the discharge path, are they? In fact the operator has some height and distance as added safety margins. What hazard am I not seeing here?

Operating a push mower on the lawn is pretty ballsy, if your spouse leaves those green metal plant stakes lying around camouflaged in the grass. I can attest they will completely penetrate the mower's trailing flap shield. For some reason I still have ankles. So far.

If you left the mower on the ground it’s pretty safe but being on the FEL allows you to lift it up to do more severe cutting.

 

[4570Man]

Next question, this is for you hydraulic experts. Could you retrofit a hydraulic motor on one of these to run off your front 3rd function hydraulics? What size/torque motor would this take? Then you could indeed run it vertical to mow the brush on the edge of the road.

It takes a lot of flow to make a decent mower. Most auxiliary hydraulics are only a couple GPM. I’ve also heard that the electric actuated 3rd function ones can’t handle continuous use. Idk how true that is. You could run hoses to rear remotes and get better flow but even then it’s not a lot. Tractors weren’t designed around the idea of using hydraulic powered implements. Most tractors that do successfully use a hydraulic brush mower or snow blower have a pto hydraulic power pack.

 

[2manyrocks]

^by the time you factor in the cost of a rear hydraulic PTO pump, a hydraulic tank, hoses, and hydraulic motor needed to satisfactorily drive a brush cutter, it gets to be cost prohibitive. That's why I believe any practical and cost effective front mower for a CUT will need to be driven off either a factory front PTO or driven by a PTO shaft from a mid mount mower PTO. Otherwise, the cutter will need its own engine.

 

[4570Man]

^by the time you factor in the cost of a rear hydraulic PTO pump, a hydraulic tank, hoses, and hydraulic motor needed to satisfactorily drive a brush cutter, it gets to be cost prohibitive. That's why I believe any practical and cost effective front mower for a CUT will need to be driven off either a factory front PTO or driven by a PTO shaft from a mid mount mower PTO. Otherwise, the cutter will need its own engine.

It’s definitely not a cost effective solution. Even if you did write the checks you need a pretty big tractor to absorb the losses in the hydraulic system. A front pto shaft would severely limit the operation range of mower. Running a mower on the loader isn’t as practical as it sounds either. It’s good for reclaiming rough areas but for mowing a field it’s troublesome to keep the height of cut the same.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

Then you'd have to consider how to cool the hydraulic fluid.

That's most likely an issue. My machine is entirely hydraulic. A hydraulic ram like on a tractor 3pt hitch doesn't generate much heat as it's only used intermittently. A hydraulic motor is another animal. And a hydraulic motor under load (like grass blades and even air) combined with the plumbing (fittings, elbows, etc all cause friction heat) causes a lot of heat. That has to be dissipated through volume and a cooler.

Yep, cooling would be an obstacle.

I have had the fans come on once or twice when working the Case 580 backhoe a bit hard in 80 degree weather, but when running the small snowblower off of the same hydraulic circuit it was a different story.

Then the fans would come on fairly quickly, and stay on. And that's at below freezing ambient temps, having a 30-something gallon tank, and a fairly large cooler with two fans.

 

[2manyrocks]

It’s definitely not a cost effective solution. Even if you did write the checks you need a pretty big tractor to absorb the losses in the hydraulic system. A front pto shaft would severely limit the operation range of mower. Running a mower on the loader isn’t as practical as it sounds either. It’s good for reclaiming rough areas but for mowing a field it’s troublesome to keep the height of cut the same.

That's a practical observation that maintaining cutting height would be harder. I hadn't considered that.

One other thing comes to mind. Using a self powered cutter would necessitate keeping the engine level enough for lubrication purposes. Having the cutting deck level when raised with the FEL would seem likely to throw debris at the operator.

I can't tell for sure, but it sort of looks like the cutting deck on MossRoad's PT raises in an arc so when raised the deck somewhat shields the operator? Is that correct MossRoad?

 

[HawkinsHollow]

That's a practical observation that maintaining cutting height would be harder. I hadn't considered that.

One other thing comes to mind. Using a self powered cutter would necessitate keeping the engine level enough for lubrication purposes. Having the cutting deck level when raised with the FEL would seem likely to throw debris at the operator.

I can't tell for sure, but it sort of looks like the cutting deck on MossRoad's PT raises in an arc so when raised the deck somewhat shields the operator? Is that correct MossRoad?

I believe I read somewhere (maybe on TBN) that a splash lubrication system can be operated at 15 degrees or less without any negative effects. If you kept the cutter angle between 5 to 15 degrees away from the operator and lower than the hood I would feel completely safe operating under those conditions. You could also make a removable cage in front of the cockpit if you wanted an extra margin of safety.

 

[MossRoad]

One other note of importance...

My front mounted brush cutter does a fine job for what it does, and my front mounted mower works well on my lawn. I can't complain. They both have casters on the front, fixed wheels on the rear, and the FEL arms are kept in float.

And, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART... and what keeps the deck on the ground all the time...

they both have a pivot pin that lets them float left and right as well. So the decks have pitch AND roll independent of the tractor. Otherwise it would be a scalping machine!

 

[MossRoad]

That's a practical observation that maintaining cutting height would be harder. I hadn't considered that.

One other thing comes to mind. Using a self powered cutter would necessitate keeping the engine level enough for lubrication purposes. Having the cutting deck level when raised with the FEL would seem likely to throw debris at the operator.

I can't tell for sure, but it sort of looks like the cutting deck on MossRoad's PT raises in an arc so when raised the deck somewhat shields the operator? Is that correct MossRoad?

Somewhat.

You can dump and curl the deck just like a bucket. However, not as extreme as a bucket, because there's a gimbal mount of sorts. If you lift the deck up off the ground you can go out front and physically tip the deck fore and aft as well as left and right. That allows you to see just how much movement the deck has independent of the tractor. Couple that with float on the FEL arms, and it's completely independent on 3 axis from the tractor.

Fore/aft
Left/right
Up/down

With that said, there are physical stops to that fore and aft movement as well as the left/right movement. So you can dump the deck down far enough to put your body in line with the blades. If you curl the deck back, it points down at the front of the machine, the front tires, etc, but not directly at you.

Make sense?

 

[scootr]

Years ago I had bought an old 4' Alamo flail mower with a B&S motor on it. Towed behind my ride-on mower and saw the 2 lines of uncut brush stand back up in a day or 2.
So I got busy and mounted it on the front of my Craftsman tractor adding 2 front wheels. It cut great but the traction was compromised to the point of defeat on hills. It was just another experiment gone south lol
I'm waiting right now for a new 5' brush hog delivery from Rut manufacturing for the skid steer. I sold the 6 footer. It was too much cutter for my 5' wide 773 BC machine.

I was wondering how much the weight of your FEL loader pushes down on the machine in float mode?

 

[MossRoad]

Years ago I had bought an old 4' Alamo flail mower with a B&S motor on it. Towed behind my ride-on mower and saw the 2 lines of uncut brush stand back up in a day or 2.
So I got busy and mounted it on the front of my Craftsman tractor adding 2 front wheels. It cut great but the traction was compromised to the point of defeat on hills. It was just another experiment gone south lol
I'm waiting right now for a new 5' brush hog delivery from Rut manufacturing for the skid steer. I sold the 6 footer. It was too much cutter for my 5' wide 773 BC machine.

I was wondering how much the weight of your FEL loader pushes down on the machine in float mode?

I'd imagine that you'd have to weigh the FEL arms and divide it by about 2, because the arms themselves ride on the tractor wheels and mower deck wheels. My FEL arms on my little machine are not that heavy, I imagine MAYBE 100 pounds at most, so MAYBE 50 pounds onto the deck. I can lift the 5' deck by myself, so it's probably under 200#.

The neat thing (at least I think it's neat) is that my machine is all wheel drive, with one wheel motor at each corner. As you go up a hill, the weight of the machine naturally pushes towards the rear wheels, and the front wheels start to lose traction. So I can pull the joystick back just enough to raise the mower wheels off the ground, and that transfers all of the weight of the mower deck to the FEL arms, which pushes down on the front tires. I gain traction and up the hill I go.... poor man's draft control!

Some of the larger PowerTrac machines have actual draft control that will do that automatically.

 

[jmc]

I'd think an operator's worst exposure would be while mowing a sharp, downhill break where the plane of rotation tilts up toward the operator. Say, a brushy shoreline, back and forth perpendicular to the shore.

 

[2515R Dude]

... my front mounted mower works well on my lawn. I can't complain. They both have casters on the front, fixed wheels on the rear, and the FEL arms are kept in float.

And, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART... and what keeps the deck on the ground all the time...

they both have a pivot pin that lets them float left and right as well. So the decks have pitch AND roll independent of the tractor. Otherwise it would be a scalping machine!

This is the flow with my design, it has only original pneumatic wheels, they are not pivoting and they are on the side, so, they cannot hold the weight of the FEL and they tend to run off the rims when i turn because it sways too much.

Another point is, on flat ground it would work well, but if there deeps or high point i had to keep a good eye on it not to dig into the ground or not being to bee too high. I already bent the skirt of it.

I was wondering how much the weight of your FEL loader pushes down on the machine in float mode?

Too much for pneumatic wheels.

In short, the front mounted cutter is nice to have but it is no way can replace 3 point mounted ones. I can imagine that i would be able to mitigate the problem in a degree by adding solid wheels, but there another question remains, what to do with uneven ground, how to make it follow the profile since it is mounted on the forks and not tilting automatically following the ground dips and high points. I need to think about it more, maybe to use chains