DK-40 Starting issues

[k0ua]

One other method you can use to troubleshoot a suspected large current draw without running the chance of ruining the ammeter function of your meter is to proceed as follows.

1: You suspect a current draw because of the spark or arc. So you form a hypothosis that perhaps a large amount of current is being drawn from the battery.

2: Not knowing how much current is being drawn, you can remove one of the battery terminals (negative being the safest to remove, in case the wrench slips and touches the chassis) and wait a few moments and take a voltage reading on top of the battery terminals. The reason to wait is so that the battery voltage will stabilize. Take a couple of readings to make sure the battery is stabilised. Lets say it stabilized at 12.5 volts.

3: Now we are ready to see what happens when we keep the probes of the voltmeter on the tops of the batter terminals and touch the battery ground clamp/lead back onto the negative terminal. We see a spark, but more importantly we measure the voltage now. If we see a falling voltage, we can know the following things: current is being drawn, and depending how low and how fast the voltage is falling, we can get some feel for what this current draw might be. Lets say it falls to 10 something volts.. That is likely one heck of a current draw. Yes the glow plugs would do that as they draw somewhere between 60 and 70 amps of current. A battery wont last long with that kind of load.

4: If the voltage drop is a tenth of a volt or so, then the current draw is probably safely measured by your 10 amp scale or even lower scale on your multimeter by measuring between the battery post and the battery clamp. Be sure to set up your meter correctly to measure current, Usually by moving the positive lead to a different plug hole on the meters body.

The point of the above exercise is to get a "feel" for how much current is being drawn, and to make logical guesses on the probable involved circuits. Obviously if you had a 100 amp meter or meter shunt for your VOM (they are available) you could do an empirical measurement and know exactly what is happening. But you can make logical choices without knowing the exact measurements with some common sense and experience.

 

[tkh159]

That's a lot of appreciated advice. When I have a chance I'll try and bypass the battery cables with jumper cables and see if I hear any clicks while turning the key and see if any lights work. If so I'll try and start the tractor.

If that works we then know its bad battery cables and/or ground. Then can trouble shoot from there.

When checking the relays behind the fire wall two checked out fine as I could feel and hear the clicking but the PTO relay gave off a spark when 12v was applied to it.

Electrical issues are a headache hopefully in time and experience it will get better for me. I'll update ASAP.

Thanks to all for the help and info. I'll keep at it.

 

[Coyote machine]

That's a lot of appreciated advice. When I have a chance I'll try and bypass the battery cables with jumper cables and see if I hear any clicks while turning the key and see if any lights work. If so I'll try and start the tractor.

If that works we then know its bad battery cables and/or ground. Then can trouble shoot from there.

When checking the relays behind the fire wall two checked out fine as I could feel and hear the clicking but the PTO relay gave off a spark when 12v was applied to it.

Electrical issues are a headache hopefully in time and experience it will get better for me. I'll update ASAP.

Thanks to all for the help and info. I'll keep at it.

Yes, and no. Yes, you can bypass the battery ground cable as I detailed earlier, BUT it seems from what you have said about sparking/arcing, when attaching the battery factory ground cable, you STILL have an undetermined high amp draw, which is cycling your new battery down to a low amp charge.
The cause, as cited, most likely your glow plug circuit, needs to be determined before going any further to pinpoint the cause of your battery's rapid discharging, and to solve the issues with your tractor not starting/starting intermittently.
The 'no' is, make no assumptions about battery cables, or anything else, until we've helped you to find the amp draw's cause.
Post back results first of disconnection the glow plug relay/circuit, and whether there is then no arcing/spark when you connect the factory ground cable to the negative battery post.
Take it slow, careful measurements, etc.

 

[tkh159]

Yes, and no. Yes, you can bypass the battery ground cable as I detailed earlier, BUT it seems from what you have said about sparking/arcing, when attaching the battery factory ground cable, you STILL have an undetermined high amp draw, which is cycling your new battery down to a low amp charge.
The cause, as cited, most likely your glow plug circuit, needs to be determined before going any further to pinpoint the cause of your battery's rapid discharging, and to solve the issues with your tractor not starting/starting intermittently.
The 'no' is, make no assumptions about battery cables, or anything else, until we've helped you to find the amp draw's cause.
Post back results first of disconnection the glow plug relay/circuit, and whether there is then no arcing/spark when you connect the factory ground cable to the negative battery post.
Take it slow, careful measurements, etc.

The three relays behind the fire wall correct me if I'm wrong are start, pto and glow relay???

Sooo disconnect all three relays check for ark each time a relay is added, correct???

Not knowing if my factory battery cables are good ( tens years old ) I could still just the jumper cables???

 

[ritcheyvs]

The firewall relays are probably starter, glow plugs, and stop solenoid. Do you have the engine version with a stop solenoid on the front of the engine or on the side of the engine (with external linkages). The electrical systems are different.

It is possible you have more than one problem. Sometimes one problem creates others. For example a current drain will kill a battery. In your case, you need to find and fix the current drain that depletes the battery when the switch is off. A battery will be permanently damaged if deeply discharged especially if not promptly recharged. So disconnect the a battery cable (preferably the negative side) except for troubleshooting until you fix the current leak. Charge the battery and keep it charged. Find out what's draining the battery; there are only a few things that have 12v with the switch off. If the leak is small enough to measure with your multi-meter locating it will be easy. A bad alternator rectifier might be the cause a current drain of about 2 amps (I had that happen once). A stuck glow plug relay would cause a huge drain, like 30-40 amps, which would burn out your meter and drain a fresh battery in a couple hours.

After you've found and fixed that current leak (a known problem) you can address other problems, if any.

 

[tkh159]

The firewall relays are probably starter, glow plugs, and stop solenoid. Do you have the engine version with a stop solenoid on the front of the engine or on the side of the engine (with external linkages). The electrical systems are different.

It is possible you have more than one problem. Sometimes one problem creates others. For example a current drain will kill a battery. In your case, you need to find and fix the current drain that depletes the battery when the switch is off. A battery will be permanently damaged if deeply discharged especially if not promptly recharged. So disconnect the a battery cable (preferably the negative side) except for troubleshooting until you fix the current leak. Charge the battery and keep it charged. Find out what's draining the battery; there are only a few things that have 12v with the switch off. If the leak is small enough to measure with your multi-meter locating it will be easy. A bad alternator rectifier might be the cause a current drain of about 2 amps (I had that happen once). A stuck glow plug relay would cause a huge drain, like 30-40 amps, which would burn out your meter and drain a fresh battery in a couple hours.

After you've found and fixed that current leak (a known problem) you can address other problems, if any.

I believe the stop solenoid is on the right hand side of the engine if you are sitting in the seat.

Oh I'm sure there's more than one issue.

The negative cable has been off since it hasn't cranked. Figured it would have just drained the battery until I could go back out and check on it.

 

[tkh159]

Forgot to add I have heard the tractor
"click" after I shut it off but recently 2 weeks ago after taking the key out it didn't stop so I pulled the emergency shut off. That happend only once so far.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Forgot to add I have heard the tractor
"click" after I shut it off but recently 2 weeks ago after taking the key out it didn't stop so I pulled the emergency shut off. That happend only once so far.

This implies (as you previously stated) that you have the older configuration with the solenoid on the right side of the engine with external linkages. That version requires electrical power to operate the solenoid which stops the engine. Unlike the newer version, your engine will continue run fine even with no electrical power. Your version also has a "timer relay" which gets battery power even with the switch off. This timer relay (on the firewall) is another possible source of current drain even with the switch off.

Attaboy on disconnecting the new battery.

 

[tkh159]

This implies (as you previously stated) that you have the older configuration with the solenoid on the right side of the engine with external linkages. That version requires electrical power to operate the solenoid which stops the engine. Unlike the newer version, your engine will continue run fine even with no electrical power. Your version also has a "timer relay" which gets battery power even with the switch off. This timer relay (on the firewall) is another possible source of current drain even with the switch off.

Attaboy on disconnecting the new battery.

As unsafe this sounds the first go around 2 weeks ago after the first bad battery I took my truck battery started my tractor and put in the dead battery while the tractor was running thinking it would charge the dead battery but it didn't it was too far gone.

Well any way during this time of swapping batteries nothing electric was working even though the engine was running. No lights not even my rpm gauge or temperature gauge were working. I had some work that needed to be done so like a fool I continued my work regardless of nothing electrical working and after I finished this where I had to use the emergency cut off to turn off the tractor.

***UPDATE bitter sweet. I came home today as it wasn't raining and wasn't having to walk in water to get to the tractor. Hooked my good battery back up and checked for arc from battery cable to battery post....no arc happened after several attempts to achieve one. So I went ahead and tried to crank the tractor. Well the tractor fired right up with no struggle with everything electrical working fine. I let it run 5 mins +/-

I repeated this step 3 times each time I had the same good results.

Due to the fact it was very dark and was working by flash light I found it unsafe to do any testing.

This is a frustrating problem and will continue to dig and test. Battery was stable and was charging while he tractor was running.

I kept the battery cables on tonight. My voltage tonight was 12.73 without the battery cables connected. If its not raining too terribly bad in the morning I'll check again to see if I have any drain.

If I can get it to crank any suggestions? Pulling the start and glow relay while the tractor is running was mentioned and is on the agenda to do and get some readings. I'm open to other options and don't be afraid to simplify a suggestion I won't be offended I'm a amateur at this type of fix.

Thanks again all for continued help.

Oh by the way ritcheyvs I followed your link and got a good read on " tractor won't start "
Very well explained!

 

[k0ua]

Well, now we have what is know as an intermittent. NOT GOOD. They say that He** for an electronics technician is a room full of intermittents with only intermittently working test equipment to attempt to repair them with.