DK-40 Starting issues

[tkh159]

Good fully charged Battery, if that is the static battery voltage. Charging voltage should be about 14.1 or so after a startup, slowly tapering off as the battery comes to a full charge. Usually around 13.8 to 13.9 .

In cold weather hitting the glow plugs will drag it down to 10.something depending on how cold and how good your battery is. But as soon as it starts it should go to about 14.1 or 14.2 or so

Is it a safe assumption if the battery is charging around 14 volt +/- that the alternator is functioning properly?

 

[k0ua]

Is it a safe assumption if the battery is charging around 14 volt +/- that the alternator is functioning properly?

Yes, Alternator and its built in regulator.

 

[ritcheyvs]

James is correct. With the key switch off, there should be ZERO current from the battery and certainly no spark. ...

I need correct this statement since we now know you have the older version with the stop solenoid on the right side. It is possible that the timer relay (and stop solenoid) might draw current briefly and arc when you observed the arc. I don't have experience with that version so I only say possible.

 

[tkh159]

I need correct this statement since we now know you have the older version with the stop solenoid on the right side. It is possible that the timer relay (and stop solenoid) might draw current briefly and arc when you observed the arc. I don't have experience with that version so I only say possible.

Could the timer relay and stop solenoid be flawed in such a way they could be stuck in an open position?

Correct me if I'm wrong the stop solenoid disengages about 15 seconds after the tractor is shut off?

Reason I ask is that it always clicks when I shut the tractor off.

Secondly I have my finger on the timer relay and I feel a movement or click at the same time the stop solenoid disengages. Is that the purpose of the timer relay?

 

[tkh159]

Got home with a little daylight left.

Battery results are 12.71

Tractor fully turned over ran until I turned it off with the key after 15 mins.

During this time I had the multimeter on and got a stable reading of 14.50 volts

Turned it off and let set five minutes and got another battey reading of 12.82

A false happiness....

 

[Coyote machine]

Got home with a little daylight left.

Battery results are 12.71

Tractor fully turned over ran until I turned it off with the key after 15 mins.

During this time I had the multimeter on and got a stable reading of 14.50 volts

Turned it off and let set five minutes and got another battey reading of 12.82

A false happiness....

NOT a negative result, once the tractor is shut off the battery voltage will reflect what it actually is at, NOT what the alternator and voltage regulator were returning to the discharged battery.
Don't begin replacing relays or solenoids/starters etc. as already stated, until we have repeatable, logically deduced results from actual troubleshooting instead of just WAGes.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Could the timer relay and stop solenoid be flawed in such a way they could be stuck in an open position?

Correct me if I'm wrong the stop solenoid disengages about 15 seconds after the tractor is shut off?

Reason I ask is that it always clicks when I shut the tractor off.

Secondly I have my finger on the timer relay and I feel a movement or click at the same time the stop solenoid disengages. Is that the purpose of the timer relay?

I have not heard of any timer relay failures. so I'd just be guessing about likely failure modes.

What you describe is the proper operation of your-style stop relay: when the key is turned to off, the relay powers the solenoid for several seconds (15 sounds about right), long enough to be sure the engine is stopped. It's just like you pushing the manual stop lever.

Also, the voltages you just reported (12.7 and 14.5) are typical of a properly operating battery and alternator.

I guess you'll just have to wait for the problem to return. So be prepared to check the battery voltage at the terminals (with a meter) when it recurs. You have two hypotheses: (a) it won't start because the battery is dead or (b) it won't start because a battery cable is bad. So be prepared to check these out. If neither is true we'll try something else.

 

[JoelD]

I had very similar initial problem as you you may have come across my post. In the end all it was was the negative terminal connection to the frame was corroded. I cleaned up, installed new battery and all has bee. Good for a number of years. Not clear based on posts if you gave all connections between battery and tractor a good going over?

Seems like other than ignition switches and grounds there's not too many electrical issues with the kioti's

Good luck sound alike it may have sorted

Joel

 

[Looking4new]

Anywhere I have an electrical connection, whether it be ground/positive I use a bit of dielectric grease on them. It can be got at any decent automotive store and it is relatively cheap.
I also use it on the legs of my 110V plugs for the block heaters.

 

[tkh159]

Yeah, wish I could say what the problem is to aid others in this disaster.

The tractor is 10 years old and one relay i did replace is the pto relay. It was a KIA relay???????? Thought it wouldn't hurt to replace it. I almost most to replace other inexpensive and easy to access relays and eletrical parts.

Any ways the "stop solenoid" (not sure of correct term) on the right hand side of the tractor engaged every time the key was turned to the "ON" position I repeated this step multiple times without cranking the tractor as I was testing the solenoid. Each time I also let it disengage which of course meant taking the key out. Thought maybe it was getting stuck and some how the timer relay was draining the battery?

 

[tkh159]

Well well well I have an update that some may find interesting.

I haven't touched the tractor since last post. Well I went to test the battery and it was reading 12.64 volts.

I turned the key to ON position and the glow plug indicator light came on. I didn't hear the clicking, clanking and ticking that I usually hear prior to starting the engine. The glow plug light went off and I turned the key to start.

The engine sputtered and spit as it tried to start. Massive amounts of exhaust came out along with the smell of unburned diesel.

I believe its safe to say my glow plugs didn't engage and that it may very well have been my electrical issue as mentioned by others.

So my guess is that it is the glow plug relay or preheating controller that may be malfunctioning. I haven't been out to test the glow plug itself and hope its not the glow plugs.

 

[ritcheyvs]

If your multi-meter has long leads (preferably with alligator clips), you can monitor the voltage to the glow plugs bu commenting a leas to the buss bar that connects the tops of the plugs (and the other lead to ground, of course). I had similar symptoms on my 2006 45s which turned out to be dirty contacts inside the key switch. Glow power was fine in "ON" but the plugs lost power when I turned the key to "crank". Later models use a different circuit that does not rely on the key switch for glow during crank, but mine does. Also, there is a spade connector where the wire connects at the back end of the buss bar; other owners have had this connection fail and even melt down from a poor connection.

In any case, start by actually measure the glow plug buss bar voltage with the key ON and in CRANK before you tear into anything. That's the sure test.

 

[tkh159]

If your multi-meter has long leads (preferably with alligator clips), you can monitor the voltage to the glow plugs bu commenting a leas to the buss bar that connects the tops of the plugs (and the other lead to ground, of course). I had similar symptoms on my 2006 45s which turned out to be dirty contacts inside the key switch. Glow power was fine in "ON" but the plugs lost power when I turned the key to "crank". Later models use a different circuit that does not rely on the key switch for glow during crank, but mine does. Also, there is a spade connector where the wire connects at the back end of the buss bar; other owners have had this connection fail and even melt down from a poor connection.

In any case, start by actually measure the glow plug buss bar voltage with the key ON and in CRANK before you tear into anything. That's the sure test.

Hey sounds like a good idea may have to get someone to read the meter as my leads aren't long enough to turn the key and read the meter.

 

[tkh159]

Tried to upload sone photos via phone but no luck. I'll upload the photos later if need be.

Anyway here's the scoop. As mentioned earlier I was going to purchase some relays that are what I believe are related to the glow plugs. The three I have are located behind the dash/firewall.

I removed them and relays prongs were HOT one relays prongs were cold. Keep in mind the tractor wasn't started and its 45 degrees outside.

That doesn't seem normal???

What would cause this?

Pictures will be added later this after noon.

 

[k0ua]

There is only one glow plug relay on a DK40. it is the center 70 amp relay on the firewall as you open the hood and look in from left to right is the starter solenoid relay, the glow plug relay, and the fuel solenoid relay.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I don't see why ant prongs should be hot. That implies the relay was consuming power, either the coil was being powered or the contacts had welded, causing it to conduct. As I recall, this saga started with a dead battery and you might have found the cause. Try to determine which relay it is by pulling the connector and then seeing what doesn't work. It should be obvious if it's the start relay and someone can observe the stop solenoid to see if it functions when the key is switched off. You can measure the glow plug voltage but there are additional (more subtle) problems that could inhibit glow power. Most relays have five terminals (2 for coil, a normally open contact, a normally closed contact, and incoming power). But I think you only have a 7-pin timer relay for the stop solenoid (no 5-pin relay for SS). So the number of pins on the hot relay may give a hint about it's function.

 

[k0ua]

I don't see why ant prongs should be hot. That implies the relay was consuming power, either the coil was being powered or the contacts had welded, causing it to conduct. As I recall, this saga started with a dead battery and you might have found the cause. Try to determine which relay it is by pulling the connector and then seeing what doesn't work. It should be obvious if it's the start relay and someone can observe the stop solenoid to see if it functions when the key is switched off. You can measure the glow plug voltage but there are additional (more subtle) problems that could inhibit glow power. Most relays have five terminals (2 for coil, a normally open contact, a normally closed contact, and incoming power). But I think you only have a 7-pin timer relay for the stop solenoid (no 5-pin relay for SS). So the number of pins on the hot relay may give a hint about it's function.

No, the timer functions are all electronic modules on the DK40se. The relays are all 5 pin on his rig. The only difference is the glow plug relay in the middle is 70 amp and the starter solenoid and the fuel stop solenoid relays are 50 amp and are the same relay. Assuming he has a DK40se...

 

[tkh159]

No, the timer functions are all electronic modules on the DK40se. The relays are all 5 pin on his rig. The only difference is the glow plug relay in the middle is 70 amp and the starter solenoid and the fuel stop solenoid relays are 50 amp and are the same relay. Assuming he has a DK40se...

All three relays I pulled are 4 pin. Two of the three were hot and I'll note their location with pictures. I'll have to load the photos tonight so I can better explain the relays. All three are positioned above the preheating controller box. I have only three mounted on this location.

Soooooo close to solving this issue.

 

[tkh159]

I don't see why ant prongs should be hot. That implies the relay was consuming power, either the coil was being powered or the contacts had welded, causing it to conduct. As I recall, this saga started with a dead battery and you might have found the cause. Try to determine which relay it is by pulling the connector and then seeing what doesn't work. It should be obvious if it's the start relay and someone can observe the stop solenoid to see if it functions when the key is switched off. You can measure the glow plug voltage but there are additional (more subtle) problems that could inhibit glow power. Most relays have five terminals (2 for coil, a normally open contact, a normally closed contact, and incoming power). But I think you only have a 7-pin timer relay for the stop solenoid (no 5-pin relay for SS). So the number of pins on the hot relay may give a hint about it's function.

Something is not allowing the glow plugs to work that much I know but why I unfortunately don't know.

Stop solenoid functions fine luckily.

The three relays I pulled all have 4 pins one which all pins run in the same direction horizontally or vertically depending on how you look at it. This relay was hot.

The other 2 relays theor pins are both vertical and horizontal.

 

[k0ua]

All three relays I pulled are 4 pin. Two of the three were hot and I'll note their location with pictures. I'll have to load the photos tonight so I can better explain the relays. All three are positioned above the preheating controller box. I have only three mounted on this location.

Soooooo close to solving this issue.

when you say hot, what do you mean? How hot? There should not be any current flowing in the coils of any of them with the tractor running. The starter solenoid relay is only energized when the engine is cranked. The glow plug relay has a cycle of 15 seconds of initial heating then about 15 seconds after startup in a "post glow" function. In other words the glow plugs are energized (by the relay contacts) about 15 seconds after startup. The fuel solenoid relay is only energized for about 1 second to pull in the high current fuel solenoid winding, then the low current winding of the fuel solenoid is powered from the key buss, so that relay has already dropped out. Since there should not be any current flowing in the coils, and hence the contacts should not be in contact during normal running operation, there should not be any heat dissipation. Heat coming off of the engine may make them warm, I don't know.. If they are hot... from electrical current, then something is wrong.