Do you regularly start your diesel tractor as maintenance?

[D7E]

We have 35 machines , some of which only run for 1 month a year , some run every day all year round , personally I would rather see a machine started as little as possible in our -35 winter even with block heaters as it is very hard on hyd's etc . We have machines up to 18'000 hrs and I think we've rebuilt 2 engines in the last 10 years one of which was bought knowing it had a problem . I don't use fuel additives or conditioners and I have never had fuel fuel freeze or gel apart from a brief mistake with bio-diesel , honestly I don't think any of it really matters !
Only thing I do know the newer our equipment gets the more unreliable and expensive to run it gets ...and always electrical or computer related ?

 

[HarleyHetz]

I don't think with modern, oils, clean fuels, modern medal alloys, manufacturing tolerances, new plastics and gasket materials, direct high pressure injection, filter materials, much of old applies anymore. HS

Uhm, they haven't changed water in all these years...and if you don't bring your engine/oil up to operating temperature to make that water evaporate, it will stay in your engine, you can argue about it until you turn blue in the face, but it is fact, it was fact when your daddy had a tractor, it is fact now. Water hasn't changed, and what it does to the oil and the inside of your engine hasn't changed. You won't find one single oil manufacturer anywhere that will tell you to mix water in with your oil PERIOD. Wonder why that is...it's because it will make your oil less effective at doing what it does, cool and lubricate the internal parts of your engine.
And, that fact holds true for ANY engine, 2 stroke, 4 stroke, deisel, propane, naturally asperaited, fuel injected, it all don't matter, water is water, and in your crankcase it is your enemy!!! All this crap about how often you start your engine matters not. I start at least one of my engines every single day, I drive to work. BUT, I don't start it, let it idle for 20 minutes and shut it back off. I drive it all the way across town before I shut it off. I don't care if you start your engine 3 times/day or once per year, it WILL last longer if you will ensure that it has warmed up enough to evaporate all of the water out of the crankcase!! FACT not conjecture, not gut feeling, FACT! I worked several years as an engineer at an engine manufacturer, I'm not yanking your crank, I'm not posting something I read on the internet (so it has to be true), warm it up, that's the key!!

 

[GManBart]

The OP says he runs it up to operating temperature. Wouldn't the engine oil be at operating temp as well?

No. The oil temperature lags behind water temperature by a fair amount. The coolant's job is to remove heat from the heads, block, etc so that the oil doesn't get too hot (and those metal parts, of course). In essence, the coolant removes heat before it can get to the oil. In cold weather the oil also goes through the pan which is exposed to the outside temperature, and that takes a long time to heat up as well, so it's acting like a cooler of sorts.

Lots of machines have both water temperature and oil temperature gauges, and it's very obvious watching them that the oil temperature takes a lot longer to get into it's normal range. Just running a diesel at idle simply can't generate enough heat to get the oil to temp in 10-15min. Even under load the oil is probably only starting to get into it's normal range after that amount of time, so it won't be long enough to boil off the condensation present.

 

[Citydude]

No. The oil temperature lags behind water temperature by a fair amount. The coolant's job is to remove heat before from the heads, block, etc so that the oil doesn't get too hot. In essence, the coolant removes heat before it can get to the oil. In cold weather the oil also goes through the pan which is exposed to the outside temperature, and that takes a long time to heat up as well, so it's acting like a cooler of sorts. Lots of machines have both water temperature and oil temperature gauges, and it's very obvious watching them that the oil temperature takes a lot longer to get into it's normal range. Just running a diesel at idle simply can't generate enough heat to get the oil to temp in 10-15min. Even under load the oil is probably only starting to get into it's normal range after that amount of time, so it won't be long enough to boil off the condensation present.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[RaydaKub]

Hi all, I'm new here!

~Gutt

Hey Gutt, :welcome: to :tractor:BN!

As others have noted, emergency vehicles, generators, etc. have some special equipment on them to help avoid the wear that frequent starts can cause, but your tractors do not. Every start causes more wear than continuous running. So starting every 2 weeks just to see if it goes, and then not getting it warmed up, you produce the most wear possible and set yourself up for the most corrosion also.

Having said that, the original question was what to do with your tractor, i.e., personally owned equipment. The needs of the tractor owner are very different from those of a fire department. I suppose there could be a case where getting the tractor running could be a life-saving event, but I would guess that would be rare, while the fire truck or emergency generator at a hospital are counted upon to be ready in an instant. The every(-other) week drills and checks serve a purpose. The equipment used there, no matter how expensive, is not more important than a human life, so while an attempt to mitigate the additional wear is made, that wear is a price we all pay for the assurance that stuff will be there when we or our neighbor truly needs it. You can always replace equipment.

 

[houstonscott]

No. The oil temperature lags behind water temperature by a fair amount. The coolant's job is to remove heat from the heads, block, etc so that the oil doesn't get too hot (and those metal parts, of course). In essence, the coolant removes heat before it can get to the oil. In cold weather the oil also goes through the pan which is exposed to the outside temperature, and that takes a long time to heat up as well, so it's acting like a cooler of sorts. Lots of machines have both water temperature and oil temperature gauges, and it's very obvious watching them that the oil temperature takes a lot longer to get into it's normal range. Just running a diesel at idle simply can't generate enough heat to get the oil to temp in 10-15min. Even under load the oil is probably only starting to get into it's normal range after that amount of time, so it won't be long enough to boil off the condensation present.

Not sure about the obsession with boiling off condensation in your oil. Many engines the oil when operating in normal ranges will not get to 212, especially older engines not designed to operate at higher temperatures. Newer engines operate at higher temperatures to facilitate a cleaner more complete burn, polluting less and creating more power. Even those engines oil temperatures except under extreme conditions and high ambient temperature you will not see 212. Your motorcycle engines are air cooled and those engines oil temperatures are higher in the 220 range, you might not want to make a connection, between the two, they are not the same. Modern oils and lubricants are spectacular, I wouldn't worry about good synthetic oils at all. HS

 

[the8080]

From Wiki on the internet so believe what you want.

Engine damage

Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon build-up. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon build-up is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, causing a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures.

Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required.

Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon build-up to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect.

 

[the8080]

From Wiki on the internet so believe what you want.

Engine damage

Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon build-up. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon build-up is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, causing a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures.

Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required.

Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon build-up to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect.

 

[houstonscott]

From Wiki on the internet so believe what you want. Engine damage Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon build-up. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis. Internal glazing and carbon build-up is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse). Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures. This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, causing a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring. Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures. Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking. The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces. This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required. Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors. Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon build-up to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect.

This was problematic in the past, modern designs with better injectors and oils especially those with high pressure direct injection and modern piston designs avoid all this, it's a new world in Diesel engines. HS

 

[McREBEL]

This topic has been very interesting to me as a new tractor (diesel) owner. Prior to this thread I wouldn't have thought a thing about cranking my tractor, letting it idle till warm then shutting it off. I think I will try to avoid that now.

Not sure about the obsession with boiling off condensation in your oil. Many engines the oil when operating in normal ranges will not get to 212, especially older engines not designed to operate at higher temperatures. Newer engines operate at higher temperatures to facilitate a cleaner more complete burn, polluting less and creating more power. Even those engines oil temperatures except under extreme conditions and high ambient temperature you will not see 212. HS

I am mostly in learning mode here but would like to point out that water does not have to get to 212 F (boiling point of pure water at atmospheric pressure at sea level) to escape. Water at room temperature will evaporate. The warmer the room gets the quicker it will evaporate. So I don't believe the oil has to get to 212 to evaporate some water. It would just be a slower process of getting rid of the water than if the oil got to 212 or higher. Taking this into consideration it wouldn't make sense to run for short periods of time for maintenance. This simplifies it some still though. Pressure and boiling point are proportional to one another. The higher the pressure the higher the boiling point, the lower the pressure the lower the boiling point. What would the internal pressure be in a diesel?

Is there enough water to matter in the first place? Is it really a problem or just a theoretical one? I have no idea. But some guys in this thread with engineering experience seem to think so.