Draft Control / Position Control

HobbleCreek · Nov 9, 2005

Here I go again showing my ignorance --what is the difference between Draft Control and position control, and when do you use each?

I have read that the Kubota 5030 has draft control available, while the Deere 4000 Twenty series has only position control. Anybody know if this is correct? For what tasks would I miss having the draft control?

-- Grant

HobbleCreek · Nov 9, 2005

. . . and now, demonstrating my impatience . . . I just did a Google search and found this explanation of 3 point hitches, including position control, draft control and response control. Maybe somebody else will find it useful, as I did.

http://www.tractorsmart.com/main/Tractor%20Three%20Point%20Lift%20Types.htm

Regarding the draft control issue on the 4x20 series tractors, the shield that covers the position control lever has a slot for a draft control lever. It seems kinda odd that it would have that slot but not have the control available even as an option.

-- Grant

timb · Nov 9, 2005

Deere *had* draft control available as an option on the 4000 and 4000-Ten series large frame tractors, it was dropped as an option when the Twenties came out. The upper cover to the diff/hitch rockshaft area changed part #'s at the same time - so I assume that the draft control bits are incompatible with the new cover. I emailed but never got an explanation from Deere why they did this. There does not appear to be any 'improvement' made otherwise to the 3-point hitch that forced the loss of the draft control as a compromise, so it was one area that was *not* "new and improved" for the Twenties.

redlevel · Nov 9, 2005

In my opinion lack of draft control is one of the major failings of the CUT tractors. It is almost impossible to plow without it. How can you truly call it a "utility" tractor if you can't plow with it? I realize that most buyers of these tractors will probably never use a ground engaging implement, but some of us still farm. That's why I still love my Ford 640 and my MF 135.

bam747 · Nov 9, 2005

I totally agree that loosing draft control on the 4720 (or other CUTs and Sub-CUTs) is a loss in functionality that can be useful for ground engaging implements. However, I'm also assuming that most CUT buyers will probably not use a lot of primary tillage implements (plows, rippers, etc). Rather, they will primarily be used for things like box blades, rear blades, rotary tillers, etc. In other words, things that would not benefit by the use of classic draft control on the 3PH

Although the 4x20 series has lost draft control, I might propose that the LoadMatch feature built into the eHydro transmission can provide an alternative solution to the draft control issue for ground engaging implements.

Consider that draft control is designed to maintain a uniform draft load on the tractor's engine by varying the depth of draft on an implement as the ground conditions change. This means it will lift the implement slightly as it encounters a high draft condition to lessen the load on the engine. It will also return the implement to its original depth as the draft load decreases. One disadvantage of this situation is that you actually end up with a non-uniform tillage depth in order maintain a constant load on the tractor.

Now consider the function of LoadMatch in combination with the eHydro transmission. Instead of raising and lowering a ground engaging implement to maintain a constant load on the engine, LoadMatch will constantly adjust the effective gear ratio of the HST transmission to maintain a constant load on the engine while leaving the ground engaging implement at a constant depth.

LoadMatch also has the advantage of working with non ground engaging implements like rotary mowers when you encounter heavy mowing conditions. It will automatically slow down the tractor's ground speed for the rough spot and then speed it back up when you move out of the tough mowing condition.

If you look at Deere's and other manufactures current large Ag tractors, you'll find that they offer the new Infinitely Variable or Constantly Variable (IVT, CVT) transmissions as well as some form of auto shifting transmissions that all do their best to keep a constant load on the tractor's engine by varying the transmissions gear ratio. Of course, on these larger Ag tractors intended for primary tillage, they also all offer some kind of draft control as well.

So, although I do wish Deere still offered draft control as a option on the 4x20 tractors, it would appear that the standard LoadMatch on the eHydro HST transmission could be a valid substitute for the majority of draft, and other, loads that might be realistically used on a CUT.

JMHO...

HobbleCreek · Nov 9, 2005

( JMHO... )

In this case, the H stands for "helpful"

Thanks,

-- Grant

timb · Nov 9, 2005

Interesting concept, although there are some cases (moldboard plows for example) where ground speed is intrinsic to the implements action and effectiveness. It could be better to reduce depth (ala traditional draft control) than ground speed per Loadmatch.

Obviously Deere felt that the call for draft control on a CUT was rare and not a useful option to keep on the books. However, it isn't like they needed to *add* it, they actually had to take action (changing top cover design) to make it *unavailable*. Unfathomable.

5030 · Nov 9, 2005

I'll throw a stick on the fire and state I prefer "mixed" control of tillage implements.

Toolguy · Nov 9, 2005

Draft contol was invented by Harry Ferguson as a way to pull a plow without needing to have a heavy tractor. The old Fergusons and Fords were pretty light tractors and the theory was that the weight would transfer from the plow to the tractor and give it the needed traction to pull the plow. Under ideal conditions the plow would want to go deeper into the soil until the tractor could no longer pull it. As the plow went deeper it would want to roll up. This was prevented by the top link on the 3pth. As the force from the top link pushed on the tractor it would accuate a valve that would lift the lower arms until the plow was up enough to take the tension off of the top link. At that point the lift arms would stop raising and maintain a preselected depth. This would also increase the weight on the rear tires which would prevent them fom slipping. This idea was in contrast to other plow manufacturers that made pull type trailer plows. These plows were very good at maintaining an even depth across a field. They relied on a heavy tractor that had the necessary traction to pull them in all conditions. This added to the cost of the tractor and plow and gave the Fergusons and Fords a price advantage. It worked fairly well and a lot of farmers used that setup. It was new idea at the time though as farming had just come out of the Horse drawn era where size and weight were everything. Both methods of plowing worked and farmers may still argue to this day as to which one was best. I think the usefulness of Draft Control is overstated. I grew up driving the old Ford tractors and did a lot of plowing with an 850 with a 3X14 mounted plow. We never used the draft control at all as it is too difficult to maintain an even plowing depth. If the ground is soft the plow goes too deep, if the ground is hard it lifts and plows too shallow. Our fields were all a mixture of sand, loam and hard clay. The low spots were sandy and soft so the plow would go too deep. The normal spots were loam and in those conditions the draft control would work OK but, as soon as you went up over a hill it would be hard clay and the plow would go from 7" to 3 or 4. The best way to maintain an even depth across the field was to always have your hand on the position control lever and adjust the depth as necessary as the field conditions changed. It is really not that hard to do and it makes the job of plowing for hours and hours and not falling asleep at the wheel a little easier to do. We also had a 3020 John Deere in the late '60s with 4-16's semi-mounted and did the same thing with that. It had draft control as well (load sensitive on the lower links only) but we never used that either. If you got into hard plowing conditions you did not want the plow to raise up. You wanted it to stay at the desired depth so it was sometimes necessary to shift down a gear and keep going. Likewise, in sandy conditions you could shift up and really get some plowing done although you had to be careful of hitting rocks. Even with trip bottoms it could be quite hard on the plow if you went too fast. However in the old days, most farmers loaded their tractors to the max and speed was not usually a problem. Nowadays, everything has so much more power. I am sure draft control has it's purpose but, I am not sure what it is, either. I want anything I pull to hold it's depth and not raise or lower just because the ground is a little harder or softer in spots. The newer John Deere Load Match adjusts the speed and torque to match the conditions without changing the position of the implement. That seems more useful to me than draft control but you can always manually adjust your speed also. Heck, if you make it too easy it takes all the fun out tractor driving. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ALABAMA_KID · Nov 9, 2005

whew!!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

That is the same way we plow around here..
Never know what kind of dirt you will be in next.

Soundguy · Nov 10, 2005

( you had to be careful of hitting rocks....it could be quite hard on the plow ....I am sure draft control has it's purpose but, I am not sure what it is, either )

Lie it was 66 years ago.. that is still one of the purposes of draft control.. object avoidance. Helps prevent broken plow tips.. and hanging the tractor on a big rock... the plow will lift to avoid it.. still bets a bit of a shock.. but not as bad as it would be without it.

Having plowed on a ford N, and also on a NH 1920. ( bigger better more hp.. no draft control ). I prefer draft controll for plowing.

Soundguy

Toolguy · Nov 10, 2005

I am sure draft control works fine if the soil conditions are fairly consistent. It can't react fast enough to avoid rocks, though.

Toolguy

Soundguy · Nov 12, 2005

You may want to try to contact the ford and ferguson engineers that designed and implemented the draft sensing hitc. They were kind enough to put plowing instructions in the 8n manual an up.. and very detailed pictures and explanations of how the hitc avoids ( ries up and over ) obstacles that are encountered. Int he 8n manual in front of me, their example of an obstruction is a rock....
Doesn't get much more clear cut than that...

Soundguy

Toolguy · Nov 12, 2005

One word: Marketing. Doesn't mean that it really did it.

Soundguy · Nov 12, 2005

That's your opinion. The fact of the matter is that when you look at the geometry of the 3pt lift, and a plow, and if you understand compresional and tensional forces, and look at the top link connection, it is -easy- to see how and why the lift can raise to avoid an object it encounters, all the while working to keep the front end down.

If the 'marketing' info as you call it was so bogues, then ford wouldn't have sold close to a million N type tractors from 39-52, and then kept going with the draft sensing 3pt lift on the NAA, hundred, and thousand series, and then still on many models thru the buyouts leading to today with CNH. My owners manual on my 2002 NH7610s also has a section of the 3pt lift, draft control,and proper attachment for safety, that reads in very similar language to my vintage reprint manual from 52... Guess that's all marketing jive that's pulled the wool over everyones eyes for 66 years right? If so.. thre marketing director of ford / now CNH... needs to run for 'emporer' of the world, according to the powers you have attributed to him/her.

Soundguy

JerryG · Nov 12, 2005

It does work. As the draft increases, the plow raises. In other words, as the rock is contacted, the plow is raised up until the rock is past because the draft is then reduced.

Toolguy · Nov 12, 2005

I can see that you have a strong liking for draft control and I respect that. It does work under certain conditions but, think about this. If draft control was the final answer for protecting the tractor and plow from rock damage, then why were spring trip bottom plows developed and later, power reset plows? That was a big breakthrough in the mid fifties. The 1955 Ford 850 with a Ford 3-14 mounted that I plowed hundreds and hundreds of acres with had trip bottoms. So did the JD 4-16 semi-mounted plow that we got in the 60's. I agree that the draft control will lift the plow once it hits the rock but, by then it is too late. The damage to the plow occurs at the moment of impact, before the draft control can react. Draft control will maintain an even load on the tractor. The trade off for that is an inconsistent implement depth as ground conditions get harder or softer. We managed to do a fine job of plowing without using the draft control by adding weights to the tractors so they could pull the plow through the tough spots without raising it up. There is still weight from the plow on the lower links even if you don't use draft control. That is the advantage of a mounted or semi-mounted plow over a pull type. The pull type or trailer plow relies entirely on the tractor to pull it. It needs an even heavier tractor. However it is hard to beat the job that a well tuned trailer plow can do.

I will not comment further on this thread other than to say that I respect everyone's opinion on this forum. I am just trying to share my experience and knowledge on this subject. You may disagree with me and I am OK with that. It is just my .02.

Toolguy

Soundguy · Nov 13, 2005

( I can see that you have a strong liking for draft control )

And we can see that you hold draft control in low regaurd. Again.. to each his own.

( the plow once it hits the rock but, by then it is too late. The damage to the plow occurs at the moment of impact, )

Perhaps.. perhaps not.. I've seen plows surviv large buried obstructions.. I've seen damaged ones too. In any event.. the 3pt setup /draft lifing over the obstruction is not 100% solely to protect the plow.. it also serves to help protect the tractor and operator from backflips. Ever seen a picture of a fordson standing on end hooked to a buried stuck plow?? I've seen many pics like that. I'll bet thier operatorswished they would have had 3pts lift with draft sensing hyds... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

( You may disagree with me and I am OK with that. It is just my .02 )

ditto

Soundguy

Geoffrey Mokomane · Dec 30, 2013

Please shed light here, I have MF375 and have attached 3 disc plough to till the land, the problem is that it raises the plough when it suppose to be ploughing, so the operator has to keep an eye on it and he keeps on handling the position and draft control livers, this was not the case before, what might be causing this? I suspected both Position and draft control levers might need adjustment but the problem seem not being resolved. Normaly we use draft lever to raise and lower the plough and keep Position control lever in raised position ie Transport mark.

what can I do now?

Tx Jim · Dec 30, 2013

Geoffrey Mokomane
Does position control lever move once you take your hand off of it? If so you need to tighten the friction washers(mechanism) that are intended to hold lever where it's set.