Thoughts on 100hp tractor options

[hayden]

I currently have Kubota L5740 and am considering adding a 100hp tractor of some sort. I want to be able to run a 15' batwing mower, and need more HP to drive an 84" hydraulic snow blower. The 5740 falls short on HP and weight for these tasks.

One area I'm focusing on is the transmission. The terrain here is very steep and uneven, and the HST in the L5740 has been great for that. But I'm concerned that a "manual" transmission will be a big step backwards. There appear to be two types in current tractors:

Synchronized gears, but clutch-to-shift. They all seem to have a clutch button on the shifter so you can just hold down the clutch button while shifting rathe than use the clutch peddle, but there will still be a pause as you shift. I'm thinking that when going real slow on steep terrain, I will actually have to brake to a stop, shift, then start up again. I'm sure I will get used to whatever, but this sounds less desirable.

Power shift gears where all the clutching is automatic and without loss of drive power, much the way an automatic transmission in a car shifts. This sounds much more desirable for my application.

All of them have foward-neutral-reverse clutchless shifting, often called a shuttle shift.

For range shifting, most require clutching, and perhaps even coming to a stop. But some have clutchless power shifting of ranges too, and even automatic reselection of the primary gear to match speed when you shift ranges. Some have just a single high/low gear range shift that is clutchless, but the individual gears are still clutch-to-shift, and there is typically a second manual shift range control too.

In a perfect world I'd just get powershift everything and I think be quite happy. The problem is that the smaller 100hp range tractors like the Massey 4700 series and the Kubota M4 series are only available with clutch shifting. Massey has a single high/low range power shift, but gears and ranges are otherwise clutch to shift.. I think Kubota is all clutch to shift. To get power shifting you need to move up to the Massey 5700 series or the Kubota M5 series. Both look like great machines, but probably overkill in all other ways for my needs, and of course a good bit more expensive.

Any thoughts on this, including any other thoughts on Massey 4700 vs 5700, and Kubota M4 vs M5 series machines?

 

[Rustyiron]

I'd guess that you don't have any experience with a "shuttle shift" or "left hand reverser" and a gear transmission and that's steering your conclusions about being a step backwards.
It's going to be difficult, but if you could find a way to demonstrate a 100hp with your conditions similar to yours I believe you'll understand the differences. For instance you mention possibly having to "brake to stop", operating a manual transmission (chores or loader work) your foot "gas pedal" is your primary speed and power controller whereas with a hydrostatic tractor the engine is set way up at or near PTO speed and your foot pedals are just controlling the flow of fluid for direction and speed.
On my m9540 my primary operating controls are my foot throttle and the left hand reverser and obviously the steering and loader/hydraulic controls. There's no clutching to change direction.
My brakes hardly see much work as releasing the throttle will slow the travel speed and being in the proper gear descending a hill does the same.
You're in the right tractor size for the batwing (you'll need 3 pair of remotes) but the 84" hyd blower IMHO it'll fall short particularly with a gear transmission without a creep gear option.
Worse case you can drive a couple of hours east and run my tractor around.

 

[Richard]

I'm not too knowlegable on all the different clutches. With that, here's my thoughts:

I'm on hilly terrain. I once had (rented) a Kubota L-35 with the GST transmission. I was on a slope, went to change range, direction, gears....something (been 20 years, don't recall) and what I did NOT know is, it would "pass through" neutral while doing what I wanted it to do.... I was on a slope, didn't expect this and it started to freewheel. I reacted and was near standing on the brake to keep machine still, while I held to steering wheel so I could pull myself harder onto the brake pedal. Decided I'd never have one of those out here again. (and haven't)

When I was looking for 15' flexwing mower, wanted a tractor large enough to stop it in place while on a hill. Ended up with the International 1066 with good brakes. This is only used as a lawn mower and, at times, I do need to hold the brakes while I'm changing gears or directions. Works fine but I still have to get to a stop to change gears/direction.

The backhoe is a geared machine but has a forward/reverser lever. One of the master cylinders needs help so one brake is weak. Doesn't really matter... as said above, I lay off gas, rpm's drop, machine slows... I DO have a brake if needed but, can always hit reverse to stop it nearly "right now".

 

[Yander]

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[Hay Dude]

I currently have Kubota L5740 and am considering adding a 100hp tractor of some sort. I want to be able to run a 15' batwing mower, and need more HP to drive an 84" hydraulic snow blower. The 5740 falls short on HP and weight for these tasks.

One area I'm focusing on is the transmission. The terrain here is very steep and uneven, and the HST in the L5740 has been great for that. But I'm concerned that a "manual" transmission will be a big step backwards. There appear to be two types in current tractors:

Synchronized gears, but clutch-to-shift. They all seem to have a clutch button on the shifter so you can just hold down the clutch button while shifting rathe than use the clutch peddle, but there will still be a pause as you shift. I'm thinking that when going real slow on steep terrain, I will actually have to brake to a stop, shift, then start up again. I'm sure I will get used to whatever, but this sounds less desirable.

Power shift gears where all the clutching is automatic and without loss of drive power, much the way an automatic transmission in a car shifts. This sounds much more desirable for my application.

All of them have foward-neutral-reverse clutchless shifting, often called a shuttle shift.

For range shifting, most require clutching, and perhaps even coming to a stop. But some have clutchless power shifting of ranges too, and even automatic reselection of the primary gear to match speed when you shift ranges. Some have just a single high/low gear range shift that is clutchless, but the individual gears are still clutch-to-shift, and there is typically a second manual shift range control too.

In a perfect world I'd just get powershift everything and I think be quite happy. The problem is that the smaller 100hp range tractors like the Massey 4700 series and the Kubota M4 series are only available with clutch shifting. Massey has a single high/low range power shift, but gears and ranges are otherwise clutch to shift.. I think Kubota is all clutch to shift. To get power shifting you need to move up to the Massey 5700 series or the Kubota M5 series. Both look like great machines, but probably overkill in all other ways for my needs, and of course a good bit more expensive.

Any thoughts on this, including any other thoughts on Massey 4700 vs 5700, and Kubota M4 vs M5 series machines?

The most important one you forgot is CVT tractors. They never lose power to the wheels. A powershift does, albeit very briefly.
If you want stability, buy a heavy tractor and set the rims/tires wide.
If you want no shifting on hills, buy a CVT tractor. You’d never go back to any other transmission.

If you want a stable tractor you dont have to shift on hills, buy a heavy CVT tractor. Best of both worlds.

I’m a heavy mowing contractor. I cut hills with a 15’ bushog and cut hay on hills nobody else wants to because they’re afraid of rollover. I run 3 different heavy CVT tractors and although it’s still dangerous, I’m much better off than I was in a lightweight powershift tractor.

 

[Rustyiron]

What HP do you need before it's offered? In my casual looking it starts pretty high in the HP department.
Not that I wouldn't love more HP

 

[oldnslo]

I believe Deere calls there transmission and IVT Vs CVT but are basically same style tranny. Both Fendt and Deere build tractors with this style of tranny, other brands may also.

My experience is with JD power shifts is they jerk every forth gear but have been around for years and I have not heard of any runaway problems on hills with power shift.

 

[Hay Dude]

I believe Deere calls there transmission and IVT Vs CVT but are basically same style tranny. Both Fendt and Deere build tractors with this style of tranny, other brands may also.

IVT is Deere. AGCO is called a CVT. I have 3 of them. Excellent “died and went to heaven” transmissions. Of course they can break, too. But they’re everything you’d ever want to operate.
Case-IH, new Holland and Kubota have them now, too.

My experience is with JD power shifts is they jerk every forth gear but have been around for years and I have not heard of any runaway problems on hills with power shift.

Thats because you are shifting into another range within the gearbox. Case-IH does it in 7-8 and 12-13.

 

[hayden]

I'd guess that you don't have any experience with a "shuttle shift" or "left hand reverser" and a gear transmission and that's steering your conclusions about being a step backwards.
It's going to be difficult, but if you could find a way to demonstrate a 100hp with your conditions similar to yours I believe you'll understand the differences. For instance you mention possibly having to "brake to stop", operating a manual transmission (chores or loader work) your foot "gas pedal" is your primary speed and power controller whereas with a hydrostatic tractor the engine is set way up at or near PTO speed and your foot pedals are just controlling the flow of fluid for direction and speed.
On my m9540 my primary operating controls are my foot throttle and the left hand reverser and obviously the steering and loader/hydraulic controls. There's no clutching to change direction.
My brakes hardly see much work as releasing the throttle will slow the travel speed and being in the proper gear descending a hill does the same.
You're in the right tractor size for the batwing (you'll need 3 pair of remotes) but the 84" hyd blower IMHO it'll fall short particularly with a gear transmission without a creep gear option.
Worse case you can drive a couple of hours east and run my tractor around.

True that I have little to no experience with this. I've only run a shuttle shift (synchro shift with a clutch button) once on a tractor similar to yours. But it was quite a few years ago.

What you describe makes total sense for loader work. My concern is operation with a 540 rpm PTO implement that requires constant engine RPMs. In that case I expect most speed control will be via shifting, and only a small amount by varying RPM. So as an example, I'm mowing up a steep hill and when I get to the top I need to turn around, placing myself sideways to the hill. Right now with the HST I slow down to make the turn, varying my slowness based on how uneven the terrain is, and how steep the slope is. Then once heading back down the hill, I resume mowing speed. And while mowign up or down hill, or even on more level ground, I often need to slow down for stretches because it's super bumpy or uneven, then resume speed. So there is a lot of slowing down and speeding up.

With a power shift I envision just bumping up or down a gear or two, then resuming. With a shuttle shift, I would do the same but need to clutch in between with the tractor wanting to stop or take off while clutching, depending on whether I'm going up or down hill.

Am I imagining this correctly, or do I have it all wrong?

 

[hayden]

The most important one you forgot is CVT tractors. They never lose power to the wheels. A powershift does, albeit very briefly.
If you want stability, buy a heavy tractor and set the rims/tires wide.
If you want no shifting on hills, buy a CVT tractor. You’d never go back to any other transmission.

If you want a stable tractor you dont have to shift on hills, buy a heavy CVT tractor. Best of both worlds.

I’m a heavy mowing contractor. I cut hills with a 15’ bushog and cut hay on hills nobody else wants to because they’re afraid of rollover. I run 3 different heavy CVT tractors and although it’s still dangerous, I’m much better off than I was in a lightweight powershift tractor.

What are examples of these CVT tractors? I'm not familiar with them.