Drain Field Dilemma

[Windknot]

Hello All,

As you can see this is my first post....I recently discovered this great site after searching out information about my brush hog....I'll be posting those questions shortly.

I do have a more pressing problem that I'd like to post to the members.

Fair Wife and I purchased 13 acres of farm land several years ago and our dream home was completed last year on the lot.

The lot is 1500' deep and 427' wide (approximately). Our home sits back from the front about 750 feet.

The back 5 acres of the property is thick mature hardwoods. We are surrounded on all sides by tilled/farmed lands.

The fields were tiled years and years ago (clay tiles hand laid) and no one really knows where they all are....I do know however that many of them drain into our property and then into the ditch in front of our property.

During the course of excavation for the home and for the utilities (water and gas) the excavator cut several of the tiles, never said anything to anyone and then just left them cut and reburied the utilities.

This has left large portions of our front yard and property in periods of heavy rains (and particularly in springtime) dangerously wet.

Unfortunately, it has also left large areas of the farm field to our north unusable as the mud is so deep that the largest tractors sink in and get stuck.

After a great deal of arguing, and threats, we were able to get our contractor to bring in someone to fix one of the cut tiles, but they deny cutting any others (we know that there were many additional ones cut.)

Herein the problem lies. We want to be good neighbors, we are willing to pay someone to come in and fix the remainder of the cut tiles and also place additional tiles around the property to aid in the draining of our yard. But NO ONE is willing to take on such a "small" job. There are only two drain tile installers within approximately 60 miles (no one else will even return our calls) and neither of them will even consider doing our job.

My question (FINALLY!!!!) is.....how difficult would it be for me to rent a small tracked excavator, dig a couple of trenches down the sides of the property, lay the tile myself and hook into the old clay tiles? Is there product out there that can make a connection between the old clay and the new modern black plastic drain?

I guess the crux of my dilemma is this....I can rent a little excavator for 60-100 bucks a day, the tile is not that expensive, but how bad can I screw this up if I try and do this myself?

Thanks for the great resources,

Windknot aka Sean

 

[neilly2]

You have the hard part finished -- you know what you want drained, where you want it drained and you even have the old lines as your starting point.

Excavators are very intuitive to learn, if you've never used one. Practice a few minutes and you'll be able to dig a trench. Have a second person in the trench make sure you're digging to the proper elevation. A rotating laser is best for this, or a 4' level would get you by. Mark out you cut line on the grass before you dig. Then as you back up digging you stay on a straight line.

I think its a pretty straightforward job. Just don't hit any other utility while you're digging this one.

 

[Windknot]

Geeze....

I never considered the level issue.......

If I'm going to be going in a straight line approximately 800 feet, how do I figure out how much drop I need.

Do I start at the bottom of the ditch? I'm starting to think I need someone with a little surveying experience to help me.....add THAT to the cost.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[neilly2]

Don't call the surveyor yet.

To start out, I'm not familiar with the clay tiles you speak of. I know of old clay pipe. Is it perforated? (holes or slits in it so water can flow into it) Or is solid pipe that drains a field inlet (grate)? This answer will tell us wether the pipe needs to be pitched or not. Either way, you're still in business without a surveyor.

 

[SCB]

Windknot,
When tying in perforated pipe to tiles, just butt up the new pipe to the tile and cover the conection with tarpaper or a piece of roofing material. I just had to do the same thing with my septic feild to satisfy the county agent. I had to run a tightline connection to the existing tiles. The tiles are usually just butted together with a top cover of half tile keeping the soil out.

 

[scout180]

Check with your county surveyor's office. They should have ditch maps if the old tile lines were laid as part of a government funded or assisted project. Each owner of the watershed would have likely been assessed for their % contibution of water to the whole project. Improvements to such projects may also be eligible for assessement. It's a lot of paperwork but can benefit all.

 

[Currmudgeon]

You may have some law on your side. In Illinois, it is illegal to cut farm tiles without fixing them. Your state may have the same. Since the farmers upstream are still under water, it seems clear that there are still some broken tiles. I imagine they’re mad as hell! The easiest place to find them is to look where the utility contractors dug. Have your lawyer contact them and, if you need to fix the tiles yourself, back-bill the utilities and their contractors. You may get a tractor payment or two out of this, and your lawyer will get a boat payment. Your county public works or engineer’s office may have a big stick to beat the utility contractors with. If the breaks are in the County right-of-way, the County may have to fix them themselves.

There are firms who locate drain tiles. Call a local engineering firm that does land development work, or a surveyor. They should know who does that in your area. The County or local land surveying firms may already have tile maps, but none of them can be trusted 100%.

You should be able to locate the discharge points into the roadside ditch. Check each of those lines for breaks. Sometimes it helps to put smoke bombs in the end of the pipe, seal the end with a sandbag, and follow the smoke trails in the lawn. Don’t lay a smoke screen across the road. Don’t ask me why I stress that point. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
http://www.superiorsignal.com/

You may be able to locate the paths of the tile lines yourself, from aerial photos. There may be a firm in your county who does aerial photos and has a library of them. You can also get historic, some quite recent, US aerials through the internet. Tile lines often show up as lighter or darker lines on the pix. In the end, you explore by digging trenches.

Typically, the old tile lines were made of clay drain tile. These are short, about 18 inch, lengths of clay pipe with no bell end, simply laid end to end with a small gap between the tiles. They weren’t perforated. So for a small fix, all you need is comparable sized PVC or corrugated steel pipe and a bucket of concrete. The easiest way is to use a larger pipe, slip it on over both tile ends, and slop some concrete into the joint. It’s kinda hard to do it wrong, as you have both ends to tie to, and the stuff’s not a precision product.

If you want to intercept the tiles at your property line and bring them out to the ditch, you have a real project. First, you need to find the tiles as described above, then dig them up and determine their sizes and elevations, along with the ditch elevation with a surveyor’s level. Don’t smash them with your backhoe, or you’ve just added another job to the to-do list. Then you can design an interceptor sewer to pick up the tiles and carry the water to the ditch line. The line must be sized correctly to carry the capacity of all the tiles it will intercept. I’d use PVC or HDPE sewer pipe. Sewer lines are usually constructed, starting at the downstream end and working up. It makes for a drier trench. Coordinate the work with the offended farmers. They may be willing to help, and may know where all their tiles are. In any event, it may help to soothe tensions.

Can you do it yourself? Yes, but it’s finicky work to get the pipe to the correct grade and slope. If you’re working in a trench over waist deep, you’ll need to slope back the sides to 1:2 or flatter, or use a trench box to keep you from being buried alive. A friend of a friend of mine’s father was killed in a farm ditch collapse. It’s a bad way to die. Deep trenching may be beyond the ability of your tractor. Handling a trench box almost certainly is.

Talk with your county engineer. He may have resources and advice for you. He may do all the design work, or loan you a survey crew to help you get started.

 

[Windknot]

THANK YOU ALL!!!!!

I had just pictured renting a small tracked excavator and spending two days trenching and then laying some PVC tile.

I guess my next step is to the courthouse and the county drain commission to see if there is any recourse legally to put pressure on the contractor that dug the trenches first, then pursue other options second, third, fourth.

I'll update you all as the news/progress as it comes.

Thanks again,

Windknot aka Sean in Michigan

 

[Phred]

Sean,

If you can get some one else to fix it for free obviosly thats the way to go.

But you can do it yourself with a mini-excavator and laser level.
I did about 500 ft of drain one weekend this way.

Its not as easy as it sounds to get the level right. You need to plan ahead so your not down to deep as you move along.

The process depends on your soil......
but you will want at least 1/4" of drop per foot or ~2-3" per 10' stick of pipe.
I used the black flex pipe for some of it and 4" pvc for some other sections. The PVC is alot more trouble but it drains a lot better.
Dig a trench and line it with landscape/drainage fabric. Add in a foot or so of gravel, the pipe, and then another foot or so of gravel. Finally cover it with the fabric and soil.
Its better if the gravel is ~2" and has no fines.
Here is a good link:
Link
and another
Link

ADS makes some flex pipe with a fabric wrap already in place. This is neat stuff since it saves lots of time.
Link

If you use the PVC get the stuff with the holes and install it with the holes down.
Also if your using PVC sticks it may require/tempt you to get in the trench to mate the sticks togheter. Be careful. People have died from trench cave in accidents and it does not take much trench depth to trap you in the event of a collapse.

Fred

 

[MFChief]

Windknot,

Currmudgeon's advise for an aerial view is excellent, you might take a look at this site. You can put in your address and get a picture of your place. You might get lucky and see something that helps, if not it's still cool to see the big brother view. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/address.aspx


I wish you well with your problem.

Terry

 

[rambler]

Arial photos are great as suggested, go to the local FSA office in your county, or that terraserver site. Many photos were taken in '92, which was a wet year in many locations and the tile lines show up well.

No one seems familiar with farm field tile. It ain't 10' sections, and it doesn't have holes on one side.....

There was the old clay tile, which is a foot or so long & various sizes, 4, 6, 8" or more in diameter. This is old stuff, 50+ years old. They just butted the tile one to the next & water soaks in at the joints. Nothing but a smooth bottom of the trench to hold the tile in line.

There is the concrete tile which replaced it, and commonly is 6, 8, 10, 12, all the way to 24" or more in diameter. This is just like the clay tile, only a bit more modern & durable. It is still used, esp in the bigger sizes.

Now we have plastic tile, which is big many-100 foot rolls of perfed plastic. It looks like the black ribbed plastic on a shop vac hose, with little holes in it on 4 sides or more. Commonly 4, 6, 8, and maybe 10" sizes. Bigger gets rapidly more expensive so it doesn't crush.

Ridgid plastic pipe is rarely (never seen it?) used for field tile.

It is easy to interconnect any of these to each other, as someone said with plastic or tar paper to get things to line up & butt up to each other. There are connectors for plastic to plastic connections. Put dirt on to anchor it, and good to go. Just make sure there is no big gap that dirt can was into, and that the water flow direction stays downhill.

I'm a farmer, & really am happy to see you acting responsibly on this. Here in the farmcountry, we get a lot of folks moving out to 10 acres & shrug their shoulders, not my problem I just drowned your 40 acres of crops.... Sigh. Thank you for caring.

Many of these old clay tile lines were hand dug, hand layed, and privately installed. There will be no court recording of them. If they are recorded in the courthouse or are a community assessed tile line (part of a govt built ditch system) then the govt will ensure it gets fixed, and you will be assessed, and you better have your ducks in a row that the contractor gets named on all the documents & he has to pay for it all.....

If you try to do this yourself, you need to determine the size of all the tile you cut & connect, and make sure the tile you install can handle all the flow. For example, if you have a 4", 6" & 8" tile to connect up, you likely need to install a 12" tile or things will not work (maybe 10" will work, but I'm not up on the converstions in my head...). That's a pretty big project for you to do yourself. On the other hand, if you come across (3) tile lines of 4" each, then an 8" line will easily take care of it, and you can roll out & install an 8" plastic line.

You need to keep some fall to the line, and be _very_ careful of cave-ins. If you get near 4' deep in wet soil types, anyone working in the bottom of the trench is in some danger. Perhaps it 'rarely' happens, but caveins happen, be aware.

You need to go to the FSA office in your county, as well as the courthouse, and get permits to tile ag land. If you are by a wetland, this can get to be a problem, as we are no longer allowed to drain wetlands, but you are repairing exsisting tile. Need to schmooz with the govt folks to get that all sorted out.

Again, thank you for caring about the neighboring farmers. I wonder how your relationship is with them at this time, if still favorable they might wish to help you wade through this paperwork & tile sizing and all. Perhaps some wish to tile more land, and would help pay for a bigger size tile and so on. Now is the time for them, might help smooth ruffled feathers on this.

First and formost, it was the contractor's issue, and I would explain to everyone & anyone that it is his fault, his cost, and he needs to be held accountable. Doing that right, you could bring a lot of attention on him from the govt & the neighbors, and keep yourself out if this mess.

--->Paul

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I wonder how your relationship is with them at this time, if still favorable they might wish to help you wade through this paperwork & tile sizing and all. Perhaps some wish to tile more land, and would help pay for a bigger size tile and so on. Now is the time for them, might help smooth ruffled feathers on this. )</font>

Being cooperative should help with those relationships. If it was my field flooded out by an ignorant or unlucky newcomer, (as opposed to by malice or callousness) I would bend over backwards and kiss his butt if he even pretended to care. I'd probably be out there teaching him how to fix the tile and using my equipment to do so.

 

[Windknot]

I'm sorry I didnt reply to all of the posts....I forgot to bookmark this thread and didnt realize there were additional replies.

I have reached a solution. I found an excavating contractor who is a farmer. He understood what the original excavator did, laughed and shrugged it off. I told him what was happening and where the water was settling. He never said a word and just walked....walked pretty much all 13 acres and then said he'd get back to me.

I was worried....usually when someone looked at the job and then said that they'd get back to me, they never came back.

This guy did.

Not only was he completely aware of the ramifications of the damage that the first guy did to the fields to my north (both physical and neighbor wise), but also recognized and took into accound the natural drains and general topography of the landscape......OH YEAH....he was also concerned about our existing landscape.....gave us a quote....it was a lot, but we were in a tough spot....no one would do the job and we NEEDED to get the water where it needed to go.

My basement's dry, my yard is dry for the most part (just had about 3" of rain today and temp went from 20 deg F to 50...massive flooding in the region...what's left to do, he's coming back in the spring to finish......

Oh yeah.....get this......I mentioned that I was worried he wasn't going to come back in the spring to finish up the final grade so he sent us the bill with a note at the bottom to pay him in the spring AFTER he finished!!!!!!!

We forwarded payment minus a sum as a retainer for the work remaining. We'll also be reccommending him to ANYONE who needs any dirt work done and he'll be getting ALL of our work on our Equestrian center that we're going to start on this next fall.

Thanks again for all of your help.

Sean

 

[mrcaptainbob]

What a super ending to this. Congratulations.

 

[rambler]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm sorry I didnt reply to all of the posts....I forgot to bookmark this thread and didnt realize there were additional replies.

I have reached a solution. I found an excavating contractor who is a farmer. He understood what the original excavator did, laughed and shrugged it off. I told him what was happening and where the water was settling. He never said a word and just walked....walked pretty much all 13 acres and then said he'd get back to me.

I was worried....usually when someone looked at the job and then said that they'd get back to me, they never came back.

This guy did.

Not only was he completely aware of the ramifications of the damage that the first guy did to the fields to my north (both physical and neighbor wise), but also recognized and took into accound the natural drains and general topography of the landscape......OH YEAH....he was also concerned about our existing landscape.....gave us a quote....it was a lot, but we were in a tough spot....no one would do the job and we NEEDED to get the water where it needed to go.

My basement's dry, my yard is dry for the most part (just had about 3" of rain today and temp went from 20 deg F to 50...massive flooding in the region...what's left to do, he's coming back in the spring to finish......

Oh yeah.....get this......I mentioned that I was worried he wasn't going to come back in the spring to finish up the final grade so he sent us the bill with a note at the bottom to pay him in the spring AFTER he finished!!!!!!!

We forwarded payment minus a sum as a retainer for the work remaining. We'll also be reccommending him to ANYONE who needs any dirt work done and he'll be getting ALL of our work on our Equestrian center that we're going to start on this next fall.

Thanks again for all of your help.

Sean )</font>

This is normal of all the farmers around me. We typically help each other. Doesn't it work that way in the city?

A guy had me bale some hay for him, bought some oats from me this summer. Guess I'll get paid next summer. My crops come once a year, I have to plan my budget for that kind of payment - once a year.

Many farmers have the equipment to do what you needed done. We are a bit scared of the 'new folks' on a few acres, sometimes they bring different ideas and bring the city with them..... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif But once you turn out to be an ok person, you will find most of your farm neighbors can handle most of the big equipment jobs in their off-time.

Glad it has worked out well for you.

--->Paul