Dump Trailer

   / Dump Trailer #311  
I suspect that being of above average intelligence the owner of the VERY NICE little dumper will not ordinarily start out with a discharged battery. If that is a reliable assumption then the solenoid/relay approach is the better choice by far.

In RV applications the diode isolator is typically better so that the users of the lights, heater fan, TV, etc don't run the vehicles starting battery down (you don't usually park overnight with the engine running.)

Normal ops with the dumper will work fine with a charge line significantly lighter in gauge than jumper cables. With jumper cables you could probably eliminate the dumper's battery. I still recommend 6 ga as able to handle enough current to help out a little (8 may be OK too and you will not have a self destruct mechanism at 10 ga but please use at least 8... multi strand of course) The 6 or 8 will be more than adequate for charging while driving from A to B and let the alternator and tractor batt help some during a lift.

You don't actually absolutely have to have the solenoid as there is no big penalty for just connecting the two batts in parallel with 6 or 8 ga wire. You will probably seperate the two and not leave the two batteries hooked up together all the time.

There is a small difference in final charging voltage between the normal starting batt and a deep cycle or maint free. For that reason the two batteries should not be left connected together when a batt maintainer (little wall wart I recommended) or other trickle charger is left connected for an extended period. For the times when the two are connected together and being worked and driven around there will be nothing to worry about regarding the different final charge voltage. I assume you won't be using the dumper for more than intermittent service for periods not to exceed 12-14 hours without a break!!!

Hope this has helped. If any of this is of further interest and not explained clearly, ask questions and I'll try to be more clear.

Oh, and one other thing... for completeness and to address some wrong info posted. Which ever batt is charged the most does NOT mean that it will supply all the power to run the system. The more fully charged batt will be discharged into the less charged and the result will be less power available than before the interconnection (batts are not 100% efficient.) In normal use (with the 8 or 6 ga interconnect) the batts will track each other in voltage quite closely, within a small fraction of a volt. A few feet of #6 can conduct MUCHO amps before it drops more than a couple tenths of a volt.

Reader's Digest version: When connecting the dumper to a tow vehicle, connect the tow vehicles 12 volt batt to the dumper's 12 volt bat (in parallel) using #6 or #8 multistrand wire for both positive and negative, avoiding using the hitch for a ground connection. Disconnect the interconnection when placing the dumper's deep cycle batt on a maintainer (wall wart.)

Pat
 
   / Dump Trailer
  • Thread Starter
#312  
patrick_g said:
I suspect that being of above average intelligence the owner of the VERY NICE little dumper will not ordinarily start out with a discharged battery. If that is a reliable assumption then the solenoid/relay approach is the better choice by far.

In RV applications the diode isolator is typically better so that the users of the lights, heater fan, TV, etc don't run the vehicles starting battery down (you don't usually park overnight with the engine running.)

Normal ops with the dumper will work fine with a charge line significantly lighter in gauge than jumper cables. With jumper cables you could probably eliminate the dumper's battery. I still recommend 6 ga as able to handle enough current to help out a little (8 may be OK too and you will not have a self destruct mechanism at 10 ga but please use at least 8... multi strand of course) The 6 or 8 will be more than adequate for charging while driving from A to B and let the alternator and tractor batt help some during a lift.

You don't actually absolutely have to have the solenoid as there is no big penalty for just connecting the two batts in parallel with 6 or 8 ga wire. You will probably seperate the two and not leave the two batteries hooked up together all the time.

There is a small difference in final charging voltage between the normal starting batt and a deep cycle or maint free. For that reason the two batteries should not be left connected together when a batt maintainer (little wall wart I recommended) or other trickle charger is left connected for an extended period. For the times when the two are connected together and being worked and driven around there will be nothing to worry about regarding the different final charge voltage. I assume you won't be using the dumper for more than intermittent service for periods not to exceed 12-14 hours without a break!!!

Hope this has helped. If any of this is of further interest and not explained clearly, ask questions and I'll try to be more clear.

Oh, and one other thing... for completeness and to address some wrong info posted. Which ever batt is charged the most does NOT mean that it will supply all the power to run the system. The more fully charged batt will be discharged into the less charged and the result will be less power available than before the interconnection (batts are not 100% efficient.) In normal use (with the 8 or 6 ga interconnect) the batts will track each other in voltage quite closely, within a small fraction of a volt. A few feet of #6 can conduct MUCHO amps before it drops more than a couple tenths of a volt.

Reader's Digest version: When connecting the dumper to a tow vehicle, connect the tow vehicles 12 volt batt to the dumper's 12 volt bat (in parallel) using #6 or #8 multistrand wire for both positive and negative, avoiding using the hitch for a ground connection. Disconnect the interconnection when placing the dumper's deep cycle batt on a maintainer (wall wart.)

Pat

Well, there's the answer to the original question: #6 or #8 wire. Of course I learned a lot in the mean time as usual.

I've got a 1.5 amp trickle charger/maintainer that I plan to use for keeping it charged when it sits.
 
   / Dump Trailer #313  
Iplayfarmer said:
Well, there's the answer to the original question: #6 or #8 wire. Of course I learned a lot in the mean time as usual.

I've got a 1.5 amp trickle charger/maintainer that I plan to use for keeping it charged when it sits.


It appears that we are back around to the simple umbilical hook-up that was recommended a while back. It should work fine. As PatG stated, the assumption is that they will be uncoupled unless actually in use.

As long as you begin with a dump battery that has been charged, you will be fine, as the tractor will only be replenishing the charge that is drawn by the dump motor each time it cycles. Once both batteries are wired together (with proper gauge wire), they are acting more like one battery, with a one key fact still remaining, the electrons will flow via the path of least resistance, ie; the easiest path.

When we were thinking you had strictly a deep cycle, it was looking like the path of least resistance may have been the tractor battery, as a strictly deep cycle battery would not pass the high current demanded by the pump motor as easily as a starting battery.

Now that we know you have a Deep Cycle Starting battery that concern is pretty much old news.

I'll still recommend the trolling Motor Male/Female connectors for their relative stoutness/gauge/ and economy. I have used them in these types of battery-to-battery and battery-to-load appllications and they do a good job.
They make for an easy plug-in operation when you are ready to hook-up.

p2076006reg.jpg


You will probalby find them with pigtails as large as 8 ga.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
You have a great Dump trailer there!
 
   / Dump Trailer #314  
SkunkWerX said:
with a one key fact still remaining, the electrons will flow via the path of least resistance, ie; the easiest path.

Excellent advice in all respects except one small technical nit which we seem to be hung up on.

The dumb wires and electrons don't act like a computer.

One of my favorite Einstein quotes is: "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. I don't always achieve this but it is of interest.

The statement "Electricity takes the path of least resistance" is often made and nearly as often shouldn't be made and is frequently just not true or is not the whole story!

Electricity takes all available paths, including the one of least resistance but not excluding others.

If electricity "O N L Y" took the path of least resistance then you could only have one light or appliance on at a time because only one of the loads could be the path of least resistance. In a car you could only have one light on at a time and blowing your horn might turn off the radio or ignition coil. This is not the case.

Current flow is proportioned according to resistance in the parallel branch circuits. Similarly both batteries in the setup discussed here make a contribution. The way they share the load differs depending on their internal resistance, and external resistance (connecting wires.)

In the attached drawing (If it got attached) you see a batt and three loads in parallel (typical way they are used.) Meter #1 will register all the amps flowing from the battery which will equal the sum of the amps flowing in each of the three parallel circuits.

You will NOT see the current taking (just) the path of the least resistance. You will see the total current flow divided proportionally between all the parallel circuits in inverse proportion to the resistances of the individual loads.
Resistance total is equal to 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3)

Total current is equal to the battery voltage divided by the total resistance as figured with the above method.

Similarly if there are multiple batteries in a circuit the current is apportioned according to the resistances. Batteries have internal resistance. This is what causes them to not be able to supply infinite amps.

Deep cycle batts have higher internal resistance and so will supply less amps when heavily loaded. combo batts, i.e. deep cycle and starting rated batts have lower internal resistance and plate construction to support some high current draw as well as deep cycle action. They are neither fish nor fowl neither a really good deep cycle batt nor a really HD starting batt but are sometimes the compromise you need.

With the tow vehicle batt and alternator connected to the dumper batt with some decent wire the dumper batt will be helped during a lift. if the wire used is too small the resistance will prevent the alt and veh batt from helping as much. Between lifts the charge rate of the dumper batt will not be so critically effected by wire size selection (12 ga vs 6 or 8) since the current will be much less.

If it were mine I'd use a couple runs of 6 but 8 will be pretty good. 10 or 12 ga wire won't save enough money to warrant losing much of the assistance of the alternator and tow vehicle batt. Again, use multistrand.

Pat

P.S. I wouldn't leave a 1 1/2 amp maintainer hooked up ad infinitum to the dumper battery. The el cheapo units supply less than an amp and are much less likely to cause a long term problem (under $10 at HF on sale) I have a good US made 1 1/2 amp maintainer and it is OK for my dual batt setups on my diesels but I prefer the little ones for long term use on single batts.
 

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   / Dump Trailer #316  
P.S. I wouldn't leave a 1 1/2 amp maintainer hooked up ad infinitum to the dumper battery. The el cheapo units supply less than an amp and are much less likely to cause a long term problem (under $10 at HF on sale) I have a good US made 1 1/2 amp maintainer and it is OK for my dual batt setups on my diesels but I prefer the little ones for long term use on single batts.

The better quality ones are fine to leave connected long term. Unlike the cheaper ones, which put out that current constantly, the better "smart chargers" continuously sample the battery and adjust as necessary so they won't boil off your electrolyte or otherwise damage the battery. I've been using several BatteryMinder smart chargers of various sizes for years with good results (including a specialty charger left connected almost all the time to a $500+ 24V aircraft battery).
 

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